rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K..

<fgnievinski.RemoveThis@terra.com.br> wrote in message
news:cd56662e-6b37-43cb-b0f7-ec09c65bc535@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks a lot for the info guys, especially Raoul and Ted. I'm going to
> use the NiMH AA I already have while I look for a cheaper KLIC-8000
> imitation -- perhaps on boxing day.
>
> Just for the record, this is the official response from Kodak. It's a
> pitty that such otherwise respected company throws in what seems pure
> FUD tactic:
>> No, you may not use any "rechargeable AA NiMH
>> batteries" with your camera since this is not a
>> recommended battery type. You may only use the
>> Kodak Lithium Digital Camera Battery CRV3 and the
>> Kodak Li-Ion Rechargeable Digital Camera Battery
>> KLIC-8000.
>>> the manual says the Z712 can take AA lithium
>>> batteries. Can I use rechargable AA NiMH batteries
>>> in my z712? Even if they last less than the lithium
>>> batteries, at least they are rechargable.
>
> Felipe.


Gosh, imagine that - Kodak only recommends Kodak branded batteries. Yeah,
I'd definitely try the NiMH.

Mark
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

>Gosh, imagine that - Kodak only recommends Kodak branded batteries. Yeah,
>I'd definitely try the NiMH.
>
>Mark
>
Before jumping on the conspiracy wagon maybe you should read
the manual.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

Ron Hunter wrote:

> Lower voltage of NiMH batteries is NO MYTH. The basic chemical
> properties of the battery determine this, and the voltage (nominal) for
> a NiMH battery is 1.24V. For an alkaline, 1.6 volts, and for a
> disposable lithium, 1.7 volts.

I guess you didn't read the referenced articles. e.g. You quote 1.6v
for alkaline. I have yet to measure over 1.56V (Fluke DVM) on a new
open circuit alkaline and that is way high under load at the half life
point.

My old GPS-II+ would let me read the actual battery voltage while the
unit was operating. It made it rather easy to observe the voltage vs.
operating time for various chemistries, particularly alkaline vs. NiMH.

Ted
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

Ted Edwards wrote:
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>
>> Lower voltage of NiMH batteries is NO MYTH. The basic chemical
>> properties of the battery determine this, and the voltage (nominal)
>> for a NiMH battery is 1.24V. For an alkaline, 1.6 volts, and for a
>> disposable lithium, 1.7 volts.
>
> I guess you didn't read the referenced articles. e.g. You quote 1.6v
> for alkaline. I have yet to measure over 1.56V (Fluke DVM) on a new
> open circuit alkaline and that is way high under load at the half life
> point.
>
> My old GPS-II+ would let me read the actual battery voltage while the
> unit was operating. It made it rather easy to observe the voltage vs.
> operating time for various chemistries, particularly alkaline vs. NiMH.
>
> Ted

The discharge curve for alkalines is fairly linear, so, yes, a half used
alkaline would be in the neighborhood of 1.3V. Still, the NiMH STARTS
there, and goes slowly down to 1.0, which is about the cutoff for a
device that is designed for use with NiMH batteries. A device designed
for use with lithium, which has a much sharper cutoff, might well set
that at 1.2V, which would result in very short use times for NiMH
batteries. The only real way to find out is just to try NiMH batteries
in the device, and see if they work satisfactorily. There is little
danger of damaging the device. It just may not work.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

<tnom RemoveThis @mucks.net> wrote in message
news:fa1tm3d1agiicctsh6opanbrbvhalo05ok@4ax.com...
>
>>Gosh, imagine that - Kodak only recommends Kodak branded batteries. Yeah,
>>I'd definitely try the NiMH.
>>
>>Mark
>>
> Before jumping on the conspiracy wagon maybe you should read
> the manual.

So you're suggesting ONLY Kodak makes batteries with the correct voltage
spec? Gimme a break.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:59:48 -0500, "Mark B."
<mbohntrash54.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:

><tnom.RemoveThis@mucks.net> wrote in message
>news:fa1tm3d1agiicctsh6opanbrbvhalo05ok@4ax.com...
>>
>>>Gosh, imagine that - Kodak only recommends Kodak branded batteries. Yeah,
>>>I'd definitely try the NiMH.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>> Before jumping on the conspiracy wagon maybe you should read
>> the manual.
>
>So you're suggesting ONLY Kodak makes batteries with the correct voltage
>spec? Gimme a break.
>
No. I suggested that you read the manual.

If you did you would know that they do NOT recommend to use Kodak
batteries ONLY.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

Ron Hunter wrote:
> The discharge curve for alkalines is fairly linear, so, yes, a half used
> alkaline would be in the neighborhood of 1.3V. Still, the NiMH STARTS
> there, and goes slowly down to 1.0, which is about the cutoff for a
> device that is designed for use with NiMH batteries.

Did you actually _look_ at the charts on the link I supplied you?
If you want to see the discharge curves for Kodak's CRV3, go to the
lower poriton of
<
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/fd/0900688a8019d7fd/KCRV3.pdf
>

Kodak seem to regard 1.55 Volts as a reasonable endpoint for their
lithium battery. Since, physically, it can be replaced with two AA
cells, that corresponds to 0.775V per cell for two cells. A practical
endpoint for NiMH is 1.0 Volt/cell. So you might care to check how much
of the potential service life would be discarded by cutting off a
lithium disposable at 2.0V.

I agree that running on NiMH is extremely unlikely to hurt the device.

Ted
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

>Kodak seem to regard 1.55 Volts as a reasonable endpoint for their
>lithium battery. Since, physically, it can be replaced with two AA
>cells, that corresponds to 0.775V per cell for two cells. A practical
>endpoint for NiMH is 1.0 Volt/cell. So you might care to check how much
>of the potential service life would be discarded by cutting off a
>lithium disposable at 2.0V.

You are wrong. To prevent over discharge of a rechargeable 3.5 volt
li-ion cell a cutoff voltage is chosen around 3 volts and never lower
than 2.5 volts. 2.5/2 = 1.25volts per cell cutoff.

Since the camera has no way of determining what battery has been
installed this cutoff point will be applied to all batteries.

A NIMH with this cutoff will not last long before the camera shuts it
down.

Read the actual case of this cutoff being reached with NIMH

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000NOQVQK?filterBy=addFourStar
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

tnom RemoveThis @mucks.net wrote:
> You are wrong. To prevent over discharge of a rechargeable 3.5 volt
> li-ion cell a cutoff voltage is chosen around 3 volts and never lower
> than 2.5 volts. 2.5/2 = 1.25volts per cell cutoff.
>
> Since the camera has no way of determining what battery has been
> installed this cutoff point will be applied to all batteries.
>
> A NIMH with this cutoff will not last long before the camera shuts it
> down.
>
> Read the actual case of this cutoff being reached with NIMH
>
> http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000NOQVQK?filterBy=addFourStar

IF that's true then free is too much to pay for that camera. There's
certainly no problem using NiMH in my Canon S3 IS.

Ted
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

Ted Edwards wrote:
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>> The discharge curve for alkalines is fairly linear, so, yes, a half
>> used alkaline would be in the neighborhood of 1.3V. Still, the NiMH
>> STARTS there, and goes slowly down to 1.0, which is about the cutoff
>> for a device that is designed for use with NiMH batteries.
>
> Did you actually _look_ at the charts on the link I supplied you?
> If you want to see the discharge curves for Kodak's CRV3, go to the
> lower poriton of
> <
> http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/fd/0900688a8019d7fd/KCRV3.pdf
> >
>
> Kodak seem to regard 1.55 Volts as a reasonable endpoint for their
> lithium battery. Since, physically, it can be replaced with two AA
> cells, that corresponds to 0.775V per cell for two cells. A practical
> endpoint for NiMH is 1.0 Volt/cell. So you might care to check how much
> of the potential service life would be discarded by cutting off a
> lithium disposable at 2.0V.
>
> I agree that running on NiMH is extremely unlikely to hurt the device.
>
> Ted

And, have you considered what the effect on an NiMH battery used
repeatedly and discharged to .775V each time? NOT something you would
want to contemplate. There are valid reasons why manufacturers
recommend one battery type over another. They want you to have good
results with their equipment. Use the recommended type of battery
(manufacturer of the battery isn't important, but the TYPE, and voltage
IS important).
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

Ted Edwards wrote:
> tnom.RemoveThis@mucks.net wrote:
>> You are wrong. To prevent over discharge of a rechargeable 3.5 volt
>> li-ion cell a cutoff voltage is chosen around 3 volts and never lower
>> than 2.5 volts. 2.5/2 = 1.25volts per cell cutoff.
>>
>> Since the camera has no way of determining what battery has been
>> installed this cutoff point will be applied to all batteries.
>> A NIMH with this cutoff will not last long before the camera shuts it
>> down.
>>
>> Read the actual case of this cutoff being reached with NIMH
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000NOQVQK?filterBy=addFourStar
>
> IF that's true then free is too much to pay for that camera. There's
> certainly no problem using NiMH in my Canon S3 IS.
>
> Ted

Apples and oranges. We are NOT discussing the Canon S3.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

fgnievinski DeleteThis @terra.com.br wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Has anyone tried using rechargable AA NiMH batteries in a Kodak Z712
> camera, please?
> It takes AA lithium batteries, but those are disposable.
> It also takes a KLIC-8000 battery, but those seem _much_ more
> expensive.
>
> I expect the NiMH to not last as long, but at least it is rechargable
> and cheaper.

Stick with the KLIC-8000 or generic replacement. You can buy the CTA
DB-8000 for $16 from Overstock.com.

The problem with the NiMH AA cells are that the voltage is a lot less
than that of the AA Lithium cells. They will work for a short time in
the Z712, but you'll go through multiple sets of NiMH cells for the same
number of photos of the KLIC-8000, CR-V3, or Lithium AA cells. The NiMH
batteries won't even really be discharged, but the voltage will be
slightly lower than the fully-charged voltage, and this will result in
the camera shutting down. There are numerous reports of attempts to use
NiMH AA cells in the Z712, and they don't work well.

Kodak could have made the cut-off voltage programmable so that NiMH
batteries would work properly, but they didn't.

See "http://batterydata.com/" for more details.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

Ron Hunter wrote:
> Apples and oranges. We are NOT discussing the Canon S3.
The OP said he has some NiMH cells. Presumably he also has a charger.
If he hasn't lost interest in this thread, perhaps he'll report back in
which case neither your opinion or mine is relevant. One experiment is
worth a thousand posts.

Ted
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K..