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UC

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Since: Nov 14, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 16) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:12 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital, others (more info?)

On Mar 7, 7:03 am, "ipy2006" <ipyasa....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
> best DSLR for this purpose?
> Thanks,
> Yip



None. You need light to do photography, you moron.

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ASAAR

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Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 3969



(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 7 Mar 2007 05:42:57 -0800, ipy2006 wrote:

> Here are some scenarios,
> Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking
> or pacing in the room, kids playing, women cooking in kitchen, or
> groups of people in meeting rooms etc. Sometimes I don't have the
> ability to use lights, I need to depend on flash and high brightness
> setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC-
> H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500.
>
> I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low
> lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available-
> light camera.
>
> Please comment.

I have no idea what the review meant. I'd take referring to a
camera as "good low lighting" and "more as a available light camera"
to be the same thing, both seem to be praising the camera's low
(available) light ability. Both are good cameras, and well within
your budget, leaving enough room left over to get a good flash. But
the cameras that they replaced are probably better from a low light
standpoint, because these (Canon's 350D and Nikon's D50), using the
same size sensors, have fewer, larger pixels. This makes them able
to collect more light and for the same high ISO setting, produce
less "noise". Canon claims that despite having smaller pixels, the
400D is no noisier than the 350D, based on using better electronics,
but I'd guess that the difference is slight, and whatever difference
there is, the advantage would probably be to the 350D. I think that
the 350D and D50 do at least as well in low light and perhaps better
than their newer, more expensive siblings.

These older models are still available new, and you can get them
for many hundreds of dollars less than the current models. The
"kit" lenses for these cameras are usually something like 18mm-55mm
and are very inexpensive. These lenses would probably be well
suited for some of the slower activities you mentioned - women
cooking, people in a meeting room, maybe people walking and pacing,
etc. With the money saved by not going for the more expensive 400D
or D80, there's a slim chance that you *might* be able to afford a
longer, faster, and unfortunately heavier f/2.8 zoom, that would be
ideal for capturing fast moving pets, children playing, some sports
activities, etc. B&H has the D50 body in stock for $450 (new) and
$400 (used). The 350D is $488 (new). Nikon's recent "budget" DSLR,
the D40 is quite similar to the D50, and it's main limitation
wouldn't be a limitation for you. It won't autofocus with old Nikon
lenses. B&H has it for $570, and this includes Nikon's 18-55mm
f/3.5-5.6 kit lens. Add the same or a similar lens to the D50 or
350D and the price will be in the same ball park. This would leave
your budget with just under $1000 remaining. That could be put to
very good use if these lenses aren't suitable for collecting lots of
light. You'd be all set if a fixed length lens of about 50mm would
do, since an f/1.4 or f/1.8 lens is fairly inexpensive. If you need
a longer lens, then you'd want to look for one that has an f/2.8
aperture, but the prices for these rise rapidly. Longer f/2.8 zoom
lenses are probably well beyond your budget.

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David Dyer-Bennet

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Since: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 481



(Msg. 18) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:44 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

ipy2006 wrote:
> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
> best DSLR for this purpose?

Well, any of the Nikon or Canon offerings are going to be significantly
better than what you're using now (I've read ahead some).

On the other hand, many of the good choices blow your $1500 max budget
*before* buying a lens. By a factor of about 5, in some cases. At that
budget, anything remotely resembling the "best" the market currently has
to offer is completely off the radar. Some of the lenses you might
want to buy for this work blow your $1500 budget all by themselves.

Sounds like you're talking bright home / average office brightness
levels, rather than really low light levels. And people in normal life,
rather than high-speed sports and such.

I would suggest that you'll be best off with a bottom-end DSLR from
Canon or Nikon plus the best fast lenses you can fit into the budget.
Nothing slower than f/2.8 need apply. You want at least one at f/1.4 or
faster, probably either a 50mm or the Sigma 30mm. And you still won't
be able to get what you really need for $1500. You also need the good
flash, in Nikon the SB-800, I forget the Canon equivalent model. The
Nikon flash system is generally thought better than the Canon, the Canon
noise at high ISOs is generally thought lower than the Nikon in
comparable cameras. The Canon fast lenses seem to be cheaper, but on
Nikon you can get cheap manual focus fast lenses and still use them on
the DSLRs. It's all a bunch of tradeoffs.

But your $1500 just isn't going to cut it with anything other than
fairly blatantly compromised equipment.
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David Dyer-Bennet

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Since: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 481



(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:46 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

ray wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, ipy2006 wrote:
>
>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
>> best DSLR for this purpose?
>> Thanks,
>> Yip
>
> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed
> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match
> what is available with film.

In my experience, this is massively wrong. High ISO is where digital
completely blows film away; there's no comparison. (I've been pushing
TRI-X since 1969, shooting the Konica 3200 color neg when it was
available, and oh *man* is digital better than any of that.)
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Floyd L. Davidson

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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901



(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:47 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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ray <ray RemoveThis @zianet.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:13:36 -0900, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>
>> ray <ray RemoveThis @zianet.com> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, ipy2006 wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
>>>> best DSLR for this purpose?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Yip
>>>
>>>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed
>>>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match
>>>what is available with film.
>>
>> Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs.
>
>I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis?

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html
http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/dslrvsfilm.htm
http://photo.net/learn/optics/digitaloptics/
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d60/d60.shtml

The controversy seems to be whether that has only been recently
true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film
at high ISOs.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com
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ray

External


Since: Dec 07, 2006
Posts: 820



(Msg. 21) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:44 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:13:36 -0900, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

> ray <ray DeleteThis @zianet.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, ipy2006 wrote:
>>
>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
>>> best DSLR for this purpose?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Yip
>>
>>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed
>>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match
>>what is available with film.
>
> Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs.

I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis?
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nospam

External


Since: Feb 16, 2006
Posts: 656



(Msg. 22) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:44 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <pan.2007.03.07.18.44.00.473793.DeleteThis@zianet.com>, ray
<ray.DeleteThis@zianet.com> wrote:

> >>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed
> >>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match
> >>what is available with film.
> >
> > Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs.
>
> I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis?

<http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html>

basically, unless one is using fine grain film, pretty much any digital
slr is going to be better, especially at higher iso.
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Paul Furman

External


Since: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 400



(Msg. 23) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

ASAAR wrote:

> These older models are still available new, and you can get them
> for many hundreds of dollars less than the current models. The
> "kit" lenses for these cameras are usually something like 18mm-55mm
> and are very inexpensive. These lenses would probably be well
> suited for some of the slower activities you mentioned - women
> cooking, people in a meeting room, maybe people walking and pacing,
> etc. With the money saved by not going for the more expensive 400D
> or D80, there's a slim chance that you *might* be able to afford a
> longer, faster, and unfortunately heavier f/2.8 zoom, that would be
> ideal for capturing fast moving pets, children playing, some sports
> activities, etc. B&H has the D50 body in stock for $450 (new) and
> $400 (used). The 350D is $488 (new). Nikon's recent "budget" DSLR,
> the D40 is quite similar to the D50, and it's main limitation
> wouldn't be a limitation for you. It won't autofocus with old Nikon
> lenses. B&H has it for $570, and this includes Nikon's 18-55mm
> f/3.5-5.6 kit lens. Add the same or a similar lens to the D50 or
> 350D and the price will be in the same ball park. This would leave
> your budget with just under $1000 remaining. That could be put to
> very good use if these lenses aren't suitable for collecting lots of
> light. You'd be all set if a fixed length lens of about 50mm would
> do, since an f/1.4 or f/1.8 lens is fairly inexpensive. If you need
> a longer lens, then you'd want to look for one that has an f/2.8
> aperture, but the prices for these rise rapidly. Longer f/2.8 zoom
> lenses are probably well beyond your budget.

I think he will need a wider lens for groups of people in a kitchen
unless it's a huge kitchen. I initially only saw the $1000 budget but
with $1500 he could get a Nikon D50, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 and 18-70mm
lenses. I don't know the Canon options as well.
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David Dyer-Bennet

External


Since: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 481



(Msg. 24) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:31 pm
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

UC wrote:
> On Mar 7, 7:03 am, "ipy2006" <ipyasa....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
>> best DSLR for this purpose?
>> Thanks,
>> Yip
>
>
>
> None. You need light to do photography, you moron.

Troll.
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Frank ess

External


Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 467



(Msg. 25) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:31 pm
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> UC wrote:
>> On Mar 7, 7:03 am, "ipy2006" <ipyasa... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
>>> best DSLR for this purpose?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Yip
>>
>>
>>
>> None. You need light to do photography, you moron.
>
> Troll.

Troll nourisher.
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Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

External


Since: Dec 04, 2006
Posts: 145



(Msg. 26) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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? "ipy2006" <ipyasaswi.RemoveThis@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:1173268980.676512.227070@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
> best DSLR for this purpose?
> Thanks,
On my film days, I used some 400 ASA film for such an occasion, with my
Nikkor 50 mm 1.4 (either delta or T-Max).Now I use a P&S, and besides I was
a Nikon fan, canon cameras are generally very good.


--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
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David Dyer-Bennet

External


Since: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 481



(Msg. 27) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
> ray <ray.DeleteThis@zianet.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:13:36 -0900, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>>
>>> ray <ray.DeleteThis@zianet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, ipy2006 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the
>>>>> best DSLR for this purpose?
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Yip
>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed
>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match
>>>> what is available with film.
>>> Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs.
>> I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis?
>
> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html
> http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/dslrvsfilm.htm
> http://photo.net/learn/optics/digitaloptics/
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d60/d60.shtml
>
> The controversy seems to be whether that has only been recently
> true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film
> at high ISOs.

Yeah, and I wouldn't know about that.

My Epson 850Z did *not* outperform film at ASA 400. My Fuji S2 *did*
outperform film (in subjective terms; I'm not working from a quantified
measure of picture quality that's valid across both film and digital!)
at ISO 1600 to ISO 400 at least.
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Floyd L. Davidson

External


Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901



(Msg. 28) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:37 pm
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Rutger" <nospam DeleteThis @please.com> wrote:
>"nospam" <nospam DeleteThis @nospam.invalid> schreef in bericht
>news:070320070812162004%nospam@nospam.invalid...
>> In article <pan.2007.03.07.15.53.05.559375 DeleteThis @zianet.com>, ray
>> <ray DeleteThis @zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed
>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match
>>> what is available with film.
>>
>> digital is *much* better than film at high iso.
>
>That is *very much* dependand by brand.

There is no brand of film that is better than all brands of
digital cameras.

The question was not if there is a given digital camera that is
not as good as some type of film. Of course there is. The question
is which is best at its best; and the answer is digital.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd DeleteThis @apaflo.com
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acl

External


Since: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 300



(Msg. 29) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:44 pm
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mar 7, 8:03 pm, "Rutger" <nos....DeleteThis@please.com> wrote:
> "nospam" <nos....DeleteThis@nospam.invalid> schreef in berichtnews:070320070812162004%nospam@nospam.invalid...
>
> > In article <pan.2007.03.07.15.53.05.559....DeleteThis@zianet.com>, ray
> > <r....DeleteThis@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> >> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed
> >> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match
> >> what is available with film.
>
> > digital is *much* better than film at high iso.
>
> That is *very much* dependand by brand.
>

Well, can you name a film that is better than the Nikon D200 at, say,
ISO 1600? (noise is not its strongest point).

Or do you mean something like "sensor/pixel size" by brand?
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Paul Furman

External


Since: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 400



(Msg. 30) Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:35 pm
Post subject: Re: low light [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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ipy2006 wrote:

> Here are some scenarios,
> Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking
> or pacing in the room, kids playing, women cooking in kitchen, or
> groups of people in meeting rooms etc. Sometimes I don't have the
> ability to use lights, I need to depend on flash and high brightness
> setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC-
> H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500.
>
> I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low
> lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available-
> light camera.
>
> Please comment.

For that budget, a Nikon D50 or Canon XTI with a Sigma 30mm f/1.4 lens.
The fixed focal length gets you faster, wider aperture and that's the
appropriate normal focal length for home sized rooms indoor groups of
people.
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