Whatever happened to Pentax?

David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "Pudentame" <no.one.DeleteThis@no.were.invalid> wrote:
>> I don't know if the market is really there for medium format digital,
>> since all the MF digital I know of on the market are actually crop
>> sensors, none of them actually 6x4.5, 6x6, or 6x7.
>
> (Note that the actuall MF frame sizes are 42x56, 56x56, and 56x70mm.)
>
> The current "cropped" MF digital sensors are 36x48, which is exactly twice
> the area of "FF", and so does have a theoretical advantage. It also turns
> out that MF lenses are razor sharp on 5D density digital sensors, so 24MP
> and higher images that are painfully sharp corner to corner are a piece of
> cake for MF digital. Anything 24MP and over in FF is going to be a stretch
> for even the best Nikkor or Canon lenses at anything other than f/8 or f/11.
>
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
>
>

There's also the cost. Medium Format film was affordable, medium format
digital not so much, with digital backs selling upwards of $10K,
although, IIRC, the Pentax 645D was planned to come on the market around
$4K.

Medium format film thrived because even rank amateurs could afford it. I
don't know if we'll see medium format digital get there.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

Tony Polson wrote:
> Pudentame <no.one RemoveThis @no.were.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I certainly agree with you on that, but everything I've read so far
>> indicates they're not resting on their laurels The new K20D is a good
>> improvement on the K10D.
>
>
> I agree. The K20D also has the first Samsung CMOS sensor in APS-C
> format. Samsung's first effort is so good that subsequent Samsung
> sensors are likely to be *well worth waiting for*.
>
> The best news is that Sony's stranglehold on the market for APS-C
> sensors has been broken. The already announced Sony 24.6 MP full
> frame sensor for 2009 is interesting, but let's not forget that a full
> frame sensor with similar pixel density to the Samsung CMOS for the
> K20D would have approximately 30 MP.
>
> A 30 MP full frame Pentax K1D? That'll do nicely!
>
>

Yeah, but in the meantime, I'm trying to get everything I can outta' the
K10D while I save up for the K20D.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

"Michael Benveniste" <mhb-offer RemoveThis @clearether.com> wrote:
>
>While I think there was a marketing window where the 645D could
>have succeeded, too many potential customers have already switched
>systems.


I wonder how many Hasselblad H Series DSLRs have been sold? How many
Mamiya ZD bodies? That data might give some indication as to the size
of the potential market.

I suspect that the market is extremely small, and that a sensor with
rather more pixels than 18 million would be needed for Pentax to
compete in it.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

Tony Polson wrote:
> "Michael Benveniste" <mhb-offer.DeleteThis@clearether.com> wrote:
>> While I think there was a marketing window where the 645D could
>> have succeeded, too many potential customers have already switched
>> systems.
>
>
> I wonder how many Hasselblad H Series DSLRs have been sold? How many
> Mamiya ZD bodies? That data might give some indication as to the size
> of the potential market.
>
> I suspect that the market is extremely small, and that a sensor with
> rather more pixels than 18 million would be needed for Pentax to
> compete in it.
>

Compare the cost of the Hasselblad H and Mamiya ZD to the cost of their
medium format film bodies.

Supply and demand. Get the price down into the range where the film
bodies were, and demand will pick up.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

"Noons" <wizofoz2k RemoveThis @yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:7163c1fa-1808-446b-8312-b5fc050ee624@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 10, 12:39 pm, "David J. Littleboy" <davi... RemoveThis @gol.com> wrote:
>
>> the area of "FF", and so does have a theoretical advantage. It also turns
>> out that MF lenses are razor sharp on 5D density digital sensors, so 24MP
>> and higher images that are painfully sharp corner to corner are a piece
>> of
>> cake for MF digital. Anything 24MP and over in FF is going to be a
>> stretch
>> for even the best Nikkor or Canon lenses at anything other than f/8 or
>> f/11.
>
> and at that density and stop-down, one will likely start to hit
> diffraction limits anyway...


Nobody needs more than 64k of memory - Bill Gates

I can never fill up a 5mg hard drive - me 1989.


--
Peter
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

Pudentame <no.one.TakeThisOut@no.were.invalid> wrote:

>Compare the cost of the Hasselblad H and Mamiya ZD to the cost of their
>medium format film bodies.
>
>Supply and demand. Get the price down into the range where the film
>bodies were, and demand will pick up.


That's true.

However, I think it is also true to say that if a product satisfies a
need no other product can, it will sell at a surprisingly high price.

The Hasselblad H3D-39 uniquely satisfies a need for a 39 MP DSLR.
While there will only be a (relatively) small number of people who
need 39 MP, the camera will be profitable if those people are prepared
to pay a high price.

I just wondered how many people were in that position.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

Tony Polson wrote:
> Pudentame <no.one RemoveThis @no.were.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Compare the cost of the Hasselblad H and Mamiya ZD to the cost of their
>> medium format film bodies.
>>
>> Supply and demand. Get the price down into the range where the film
>> bodies were, and demand will pick up.
>
>
> That's true.
>
> However, I think it is also true to say that if a product satisfies a
> need no other product can, it will sell at a surprisingly high price.
>
> The Hasselblad H3D-39 uniquely satisfies a need for a 39 MP DSLR.
> While there will only be a (relatively) small number of people who
> need 39 MP, the camera will be profitable if those people are prepared
> to pay a high price.
>
> I just wondered how many people were in that position.
>

I'm thinking *not enough* over the longer term.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

"Pudentame" <no.one RemoveThis @no.were.invalid> wrote in message
news:47d56749$0$4943$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Tony Polson wrote:
>> Pudentame <no.one RemoveThis @no.were.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I certainly agree with you on that, but everything I've read so far
>>> indicates they're not resting on their laurels The new K20D is a good
>>> improvement on the K10D.
>>
>>
>> I agree. The K20D also has the first Samsung CMOS sensor in APS-C
>> format. Samsung's first effort is so good that subsequent Samsung
>> sensors are likely to be *well worth waiting for*.
>>
>> The best news is that Sony's stranglehold on the market for APS-C
>> sensors has been broken. The already announced Sony 24.6 MP full
>> frame sensor for 2009 is interesting, but let's not forget that a full
>> frame sensor with similar pixel density to the Samsung CMOS for the
>> K20D would have approximately 30 MP.
>>
>> A 30 MP full frame Pentax K1D? That'll do nicely!
>>
>
> Yeah, but in the meantime, I'm trying to get everything I can outta' the
> K10D while I save up for the K20D.

Personally I think waiting for the K30D would be prudent.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

Pete D wrote:
> "Pudentame" <no.one.RemoveThis@no.were.invalid> wrote in message
> news:47d56749$0$4943$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> Tony Polson wrote:
>>> Pudentame <no.one.RemoveThis@no.were.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I certainly agree with you on that, but everything I've read so far
>>>> indicates they're not resting on their laurels The new K20D is a good
>>>> improvement on the K10D.
>>>
>>> I agree. The K20D also has the first Samsung CMOS sensor in APS-C
>>> format. Samsung's first effort is so good that subsequent Samsung
>>> sensors are likely to be *well worth waiting for*.
>>>
>>> The best news is that Sony's stranglehold on the market for APS-C
>>> sensors has been broken. The already announced Sony 24.6 MP full
>>> frame sensor for 2009 is interesting, but let's not forget that a full
>>> frame sensor with similar pixel density to the Samsung CMOS for the
>>> K20D would have approximately 30 MP.
>>>
>>> A 30 MP full frame Pentax K1D? That'll do nicely!
>>>
>> Yeah, but in the meantime, I'm trying to get everything I can outta' the
>> K10D while I save up for the K20D.
>
> Personally I think waiting for the K30D would be prudent.
>
>

If it's available by the time I get the money saved ...

My current income:expense ratio ain't high, so it's gonna' be a long
slog. Maybe it'll be a K40D.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

"Pudentame" <no.one.DeleteThis@no.were.invalid> wrote in message
news:47d45edd$0$17371$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Dudley Hanks wrote:
>> "Happy Traveler" <happy_traveler.DeleteThis@abc.net> wrote in message
>> news:3eydnWhlAvzr_07anZ2dnUVZ_rmjnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> I have a Spotmatic SPII -- still in good working order. It's a classic,
>>> but in spite of the catchy name, it only measures some sort of
>>> center-weighted average. Don't believe that the Spotmatic, or even its
>>> early 1980's successors (like the ME Super that I also have) ever did
>>> any more than that. On the other hand, film is a lot more tolerant of
>>> overexposure than digital, so spot measuring for highlights was not as
>>> big a deal as it is now...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dudley Hanks" <hanks.dudley.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:IQGAj.69831$FO1.22055@edtnps82...
>>>> Well, sort of. If my memory isn't too fuzzy, I think that they "said"
>>>> they were going to make the first SLR with spot metering -- the
>>>> Spotmatic. Pentax made a pre-production model according to its claims,
>>>> but when it hit production the spot sensoring turned out to be a couple
>>>> of sensors that really only read an average of the light in the
>>>> viewfinder. I'm not sure if they later modified the spotmatic to
>>>> actually use spot metering, or whether one of the other giants got it
>>>> into production first.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, that is a classic.
>>
>> I read something on the net a while back that Pentax wants to revive the
>> concept / name with a digital version. Have you heard anything about
>> that?
>>
>> Take Good Care of Your Classic,
>> Dudley
>>
>>
>
> Well, the K100D and K10D names were specifically meant to recall fond
> feelings many a photographer has for the K1000.

One of the members of the Camera Club that Im president of uses the K10D and
the results from it are excellent!

McK.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:44:22 +0000, Tony Polson
<docnews2011 RemoveThis @googlemail.com> wrote:

>The Hasselblad H3D-39 uniquely satisfies a need for a 39 MP DSLR.
>While there will only be a (relatively) small number of people who
>need 39 MP, the camera will be profitable if those people are prepared
>to pay a high price.

>I just wondered how many people were in that position.

Walk into non-photographer friend's home, and note the number of large,
high-quality photographic prints. Then do the same for a small or
medium-sized business.

The H3D-39 is designed to create a gallery quality 18x24" print, or a
very good quality 27x36". Currently, that size of print is not really
in fashion for homes. In a business setting, you'll see the occasional
founders' shot or team photograph, but even those are now more likely to
appear on a webpage than on a wall.

My _guess_ is that quite a few working pros have an occasional need to
print at that size, but it's not enough to warrant the investment.
Instead, they'll either look to rent an H3D or fall back to a film
camera. In the last year, the two 24x30" prints I've made both came out
of my 4x5" field camera.

Of course, fashions could change next week. But if I was a pro, I
wouldn't tie up my capital on that sort of bet.

--
Michael Benveniste -- mhb-offer RemoveThis @clearether.com
Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419. Use this email
address only to submit mail for evaluation.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

Pudentame <no.one.RemoveThis@no.were.invalid> wrote:

>Tony Polson wrote:
>> Pudentame <no.one.RemoveThis@no.were.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Compare the cost of the Hasselblad H and Mamiya ZD to the cost of their
>>> medium format film bodies.
>>>
>>> Supply and demand. Get the price down into the range where the film
>>> bodies were, and demand will pick up.
>>
>>
>> That's true.
>>
>> However, I think it is also true to say that if a product satisfies a
>> need no other product can, it will sell at a surprisingly high price.
>>
>> The Hasselblad H3D-39 uniquely satisfies a need for a 39 MP DSLR.
>> While there will only be a (relatively) small number of people who
>> need 39 MP, the camera will be profitable if those people are prepared
>> to pay a high price.
>>
>> I just wondered how many people were in that position.
>>
>
>I'm thinking *not enough* over the longer term.


I think you're probably right. But it would be good to see some
figures, to put the discussion in perspective.
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax? 

"Dudley Hanks" <hanks.dudley RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nWCAj.74916$w57.63673@edtnps90...
> Back in the '60s, '70s and even into the '80s Pentax was right up there
> with Canon and Nikon. But, today, it seems like the company doesn't even
> get honourable mention in the brand wars. What happened?
>

They did what most of the other camera manufacturers did--they began sucking
the build quality out of their bodies and lenses. At least Nikon maintained
a high-end line for professionals. Pentax lost it whan they discontinued
the LX without first creating a replacement model.

When I compare the build quality of my "A" lenses to my SMC Takumars, I just
shake my head in disbelief. The Spotmatic-F and the ES-II were the high
water marks for Pentax. Once they migrated to the K Mount, things went
downhill. I have a P3n and a P30t which I use as my knockaround cameras.
They are made in China, they are so light that they feel like they're just
made of air, but they take good photos. Trouble is, they feel like toys,
relative to my older Pentax gear.

Many (most?) of today's photographers don't remember what was out there in
the early 70s, and thus do not know what they are missing.

I would argue that--for advanced amateurs especially--cameras and lenses
need to provide some tactile gratification in addition to just recording
images. If they feel like toys, the brand will be perceived as another
also-ran.

Now, with Pentax mass-producing digital ameras in Vietnam, the problem will
only become worse. Cameras are becoming commodities rather than specialized
optical tools. Robotic assembly lines stamp them out as though they were
cookie cutters.

Remember when audiophiles spent thousands on top-notch turntables and
cartridges, in order to get that high end sound? Now a cheap CD Walkman can
outperform many of those old analog setups--and audiophile sound is
available to Everyman, at low prices. I suspect that consumer/advanced
amateur gear is headed in the same direction. Cheap, disposable & plastic .
.. .
 >> Stay informed about: Whatever happened to Pentax?