rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K..

Ron Hunter wrote:
> Ted Edwards wrote:
>> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>> Apples and oranges. We are NOT discussing the Canon S3.
>> The OP said he has some NiMH cells. Presumably he also has a charger.
>> If he hasn't lost interest in this thread, perhaps he'll report back
>> in which case neither your opinion or mine is relevant. One
>> experiment is worth a thousand posts.
>>
>> Ted
>
> Very true, if he will just test, and post.

FWIW, there are reports already regarding Z712 owners trying to use NiMH
AA cells. They work, but not well or for long.

Kodak probably should never have made the use if AA Lithium batteries an
option in the Z712 IS because despite what they recommend, they should
have known that some users would try to use NiMH AA cells instead. If
they enable the use of AA cells, then they should have made the battery
type programmable so that NiMH batteries would work well.

Ironically, Kodak is really giving users the best of both worlds--in a
pinch you can buy a pack of Energizer Lithium AA cells, while at other
times you gain the tremendous advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables versus
NiMH AA cells, with the use of a KLIC-8000 or equivalent Li-Ion pack.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

SMS 斯蒂文• 夏 wrote:
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>> Ted Edwards wrote:
>>> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>> Apples and oranges. We are NOT discussing the Canon S3.
>>> The OP said he has some NiMH cells. Presumably he also has a
>>> charger. If he hasn't lost interest in this thread, perhaps he'll
>>> report back in which case neither your opinion or mine is relevant.
>>> One experiment is worth a thousand posts.
>>>
>>> Ted
>>
>> Very true, if he will just test, and post.
>
> FWIW, there are reports already regarding Z712 owners trying to use NiMH
> AA cells. They work, but not well or for long.
>
> Kodak probably should never have made the use if AA Lithium batteries an
> option in the Z712 IS because despite what they recommend, they should
> have known that some users would try to use NiMH AA cells instead. If
> they enable the use of AA cells, then they should have made the battery
> type programmable so that NiMH batteries would work well.
>
> Ironically, Kodak is really giving users the best of both worlds--in a
> pinch you can buy a pack of Energizer Lithium AA cells, while at other
> times you gain the tremendous advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables versus
> NiMH AA cells, with the use of a KLIC-8000 or equivalent Li-Ion pack.

I agree that IF the camera is engineered to actually work properly on
the lower voltage of NiMH cells, they should have included the ability
to make good use of them, but with the price of disposable lithium
batteries these days, it really isn't a great expense if you chose to
use them exclusively. I buy disposable AA lithium batteries for 12/$20,
so that comes to about $3 a set, and I get about 300 shots from a set.
A penny for each shot isn't likely to break me (any worse than I am
already broke.).
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

>
>FWIW, there are reports already regarding Z712 owners trying to use NiMH
>AA cells. They work, but not well or for long.

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=572060

>Kodak probably should never have made the use if AA Lithium batteries an
>option in the Z712 IS because despite what they recommend, they should
>have known that some users would try to use NiMH AA cells instead. If
>they enable the use of AA cells, then they should have made the battery
>type programmable so that NiMH batteries would work well.

Kodak has made other cameras with a switch to choose your power source

>Ironically, Kodak is really giving users the best of both worlds--in a
>pinch you can buy a pack of Energizer Lithium AA cells, while at other
>times you gain the tremendous advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables versus
>NiMH AA cells, with the use of a KLIC-8000 or equivalent Li-Ion pack.

"tremendous advantage" You are showing your bias now. Not good
for someone that writes battery data pages and posts the link here
for all of us to read. With the advent of low self discharge NIMH
batteries there is no such thing as a tremendous advantages of
Li-Ion rechargeables versus NiMH AA cells.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

tnom.TakeThisOut@mucks.net wrote:
>> FWIW, there are reports already regarding Z712 owners trying to use NiMH
>> AA cells. They work, but not well or for long.
>
> http://forums.steves-digicams.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=572060
>
>> Kodak probably should never have made the use if AA Lithium batteries an
>> option in the Z712 IS because despite what they recommend, they should
>> have known that some users would try to use NiMH AA cells instead. If
>> they enable the use of AA cells, then they should have made the battery
>> type programmable so that NiMH batteries would work well.
>
> Kodak has made other cameras with a switch to choose your power source
>
>> Ironically, Kodak is really giving users the best of both worlds--in a
>> pinch you can buy a pack of Energizer Lithium AA cells, while at other
>> times you gain the tremendous advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables versus
>> NiMH AA cells, with the use of a KLIC-8000 or equivalent Li-Ion pack.
>
> "tremendous advantage" You are showing your bias now. Not good
> for someone that writes battery data pages and posts the link here
> for all of us to read. With the advent of low self discharge NIMH
> batteries there is no such thing as a tremendous advantages of
> Li-Ion rechargeables versus NiMH AA cells.

Well, lithium batteries still have great advantages in the area of
weight for power density, and low temperature performance. The long
shelf-life of the lithium disposables is also a good feature, but hardly
a consideration for most of us.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

>> "tremendous advantage" You are showing your bias now. Not good
>> for someone that writes battery data pages and posts the link here
>> for all of us to read. With the advent of low self discharge NIMH
>> batteries there is no such thing as a tremendous advantages of
>> Li-Ion rechargeables versus NiMH AA cells.
>
>Well, lithium batteries still have great advantages in the area of
>weight for power density, and low temperature performance.

If these factors come into play. For most users these advantages
are ho hum.

>The long
>shelf-life of the lithium disposables is also a good feature, but hardly
>a consideration for most of us.

For disposables true, but the above was about Li-ion rechargeable.
Li-ion rechargeable have a short life span period. They start to
degrade from day of manufacture even if they don't get used.
How can a battery with this restriction possibly have a "tremendous
advantage" over low self discharge NIMH batteries?
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

Ron Hunter wrote:

> Well, lithium batteries still have great advantages in the area of
> weight for power density, and low temperature performance. The long
> shelf-life of the lithium disposables is also a good feature, but hardly
> a consideration for most of us.

This is true. There's a tendency for NiMH users to focus only on
self-discharge, since this was one of the primary disadvantages of NiMH
batteries.

While personally I'm a big user of the eneloop batteries (I have three
of the Costco/Sanyo 12 packs), the low-discharge does come at the price
of lower cell capacity because of the technology used to reduce
self-discharge.

When I was XC skiing on Sunday, there was a couple with a Nikon point
and shoot camera that had the infamous battery door issue. While
technically this is just poor engineering on the part of camera makers,
it is inherent in the design of most AA powered cameras, which use
spring loaded contacts, and make the battery door part of the series
circuit.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

tnom.RemoveThis@mucks.net wrote:
>
>>> "tremendous advantage" You are showing your bias now. Not good
>>> for someone that writes battery data pages and posts the link here
>>> for all of us to read. With the advent of low self discharge NIMH
>>> batteries there is no such thing as a tremendous advantages of
>>> Li-Ion rechargeables versus NiMH AA cells.
>> Well, lithium batteries still have great advantages in the area of
>> weight for power density, and low temperature performance.
>
> If these factors come into play. For most users these advantages
> are ho hum.
>
>> The long
>> shelf-life of the lithium disposables is also a good feature, but hardly
>> a consideration for most of us.
>
> For disposables true, but the above was about Li-ion rechargeable.
> Li-ion rechargeable have a short life span period. They start to
> degrade from day of manufacture even if they don't get used.
> How can a battery with this restriction possibly have a "tremendous
> advantage" over low self discharge NIMH batteries?

It depends on the intended usage. For some uses, disposable lithiums
make good sense, and for others Lithium-ion, and for yet others, NiMH.
In my laptop, I have Lithium-ion, as their weight savings is
significant, but after 3 years, they are down to about 1/2 the working
time as when they were new. Probably disposables would be
unsatisfactory for that purpose, and NiMH would add significantly to the
weight of an already pretty heavy laptop. It's all in the intended use.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

SMS wrote:
> While personally I'm a big user of the eneloop batteries (I have three
> of the Costco/Sanyo 12 packs), the low-discharge does come at the price
> of lower cell capacity because of the technology used to reduce
> self-discharge.
However I have read that their internal resistance is lower. Since many
modern devices have some form of switching power supplies, it is very
often Watt hour capacity under load that is more important than Amp hours.

> When I was XC skiing on Sunday, there was a couple with a Nikon point
> and shoot camera that had the infamous battery door issue. While
> technically this is just poor engineering on the part of camera makers,
> it is inherent in the design of most AA powered cameras, which use
> spring loaded contacts, and make the battery door part of the series
> circuit.

I have a Canon camera, a Garmin GPS powered by AAs and several LED
flashlights powered by AAAs and have never had any "door" problems.
Note that while the door may be part of the circuit, there is no need
for the hinge to be part of the circuit.

Ted
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:12:45 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:

>> When I was XC skiing on Sunday, there was a couple with a Nikon point
>> and shoot camera that had the infamous battery door issue. While
>> technically this is just poor engineering on the part of camera makers,
>> it is inherent in the design of most AA powered cameras, which use
>> spring loaded contacts, and make the battery door part of the series
>> circuit.
>
> I have a Canon camera, a Garmin GPS powered by AAs and several LED
> flashlights powered by AAAs and have never had any "door" problems.
> Note that while the door may be part of the circuit, there is no need
> for the hinge to be part of the circuit.

Nor have millions of other owners of cameras that use AA
batteries. SMS's irrational anti-AA bias is legendary, and when
discussing AA batteries, also appears to be unhinged.
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

ASAAR wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:12:45 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:
>
> >> When I was XC skiing on Sunday, there was a couple with a Nikon point
> >> and shoot camera that had the infamous battery door issue. While
> >> technically this is just poor engineering on the part of camera makers,
> >> it is inherent in the design of most AA powered cameras, which use
> >> spring loaded contacts, and make the battery door part of the series
> >> circuit.
> >
> > I have a Canon camera, a Garmin GPS powered by AAs and several LED
> > flashlights powered by AAAs and have never had any "door" problems.
> > Note that while the door may be part of the circuit, there is no need
> > for the hinge to be part of the circuit.
>
> Nor have millions of other owners of cameras that use AA
> batteries. SMS's irrational anti-AA bias is legendary, and when
> discussing AA batteries, also appears to be unhinged.


Hello, ASAAR:

Yeah, Steven M. Sharf must've suffered a very traumatizing childhood
experience, involving AA cells! <G>

By the way, only one of my various AA-powered digital cameras (including
a Pentax K100D DSLR) has ever suffered any damage to its battery door.
That's my Kodak DC3200, and I "fixed" it by drilling a tiny hole in the
body and shoving a shortened, straight pin through it.


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur RemoveThis @concentric.net>
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:08:48 -0600, John Turco wrote:

> By the way, only one of my various AA-powered digital cameras (including
> a Pentax K100D DSLR) has ever suffered any damage to its battery door.
> That's my Kodak DC3200, and I "fixed" it by drilling a tiny hole in the
> body and shoving a shortened, straight pin through it.

More, tell us more! (wondering if you have a license to practice
voodoo?)
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K.. 

ASAAR wrote:
>
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:08:48 -0600, John Turco wrote:
>
> > By the way, only one of my various AA-powered digital cameras (including
> > a Pentax K100D DSLR) has ever suffered any damage to its battery door.
> > That's my Kodak DC3200, and I "fixed" it by drilling a tiny hole in the
> > body and shoving a shortened, straight pin through it.
>
> More, tell us more! (wondering if you have a license to practice
> voodoo?)


Hello, ASAAR:

So, who needs a license? <g>


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur.TakeThisOut@concentric.net>
 >> Stay informed about: rechargeable AA NiMH instead of disposable AA lithium in K..