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Joseph Miller

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Since: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 47



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:41 pm
Post subject: dpreview bias?
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

Having read their reviews very carefully for years I always thought they
had a pro-Nikon bias. It always seemed to me that they picked on very
minor things to complain about with Canon cameras. When they compared
pictures taken with Canon and Nikon cameras, they often said there was
no difference or the Nikon was better, when it looked obvious to me that
the Canon was better in just the area they were comparing. So, after
being surprised after reading the long set of posts from people who
think they are biased in favor of Canon, I guess it may not be so
obvious that there is any brand bias and what it is. They do have
different reviewers, so maybe that could account for different biases.

However, in the end, one shouldn't really care all that much IF one
knows how to use reviews. ALL reviews are biased, if not by brand, at
least by the reviewers' tastes or preferences. Even the size of the
reviewer's hands can make a difference in what they think about a
camera! I use reviews only as a rough guide. I hope that they will
expose major faults or aspects of performance that might bother or
please me, but in the end I must try out the items themselves and do my
own evaluations before making a choice. The Canon 400D fits my hands
perfectly, for example, while most reviewers said it was too small.

All recent Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras are superb. In competant hands,
they are capable of taking stunning pictures. I would be willing to bet
that a first-rate photographer could photograph the same scenes with
both a Nikon and a Canon, have large prints made, and there isn't a
person reading this post who could tell what brand of camera they were
taken with by looking at the prints. Incidentally, I own two Nikon
cameras and two Canon cameras and see no superiority of one brand over
the other. There are things I like and dislike about each camera, but
these things are specific to the camera.

Joe

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Bill

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Since: Jun 10, 2007
Posts: 42



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:31 pm
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:41:52 -0700, Joseph Miller <miller RemoveThis @ucolick.org>
wrote:

>Having read their reviews very carefully for years I always thought they
>had a pro-Nikon bias. It always seemed to me that they picked on very
>minor things to complain about with Canon cameras. When they compared
>pictures taken with Canon and Nikon cameras, they often said there was
>no difference or the Nikon was better, when it looked obvious to me that
>the Canon was better in just the area they were comparing. So, after
>being surprised after reading the long set of posts from people who
>think they are biased in favor of Canon, I guess it may not be so
>obvious that there is any brand bias and what it is. They do have
>different reviewers, so maybe that could account for different biases.
>
>However, in the end, one shouldn't really care all that much IF one
>knows how to use reviews. ALL reviews are biased, if not by brand, at
>least by the reviewers' tastes or preferences. Even the size of the
>reviewer's hands can make a difference in what they think about a
>camera! I use reviews only as a rough guide. I hope that they will
>expose major faults or aspects of performance that might bother or
>please me, but in the end I must try out the items themselves and do my
>own evaluations before making a choice. The Canon 400D fits my hands
>perfectly, for example, while most reviewers said it was too small.
>
>All recent Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras are superb. In competant hands,
>they are capable of taking stunning pictures. I would be willing to bet
>that a first-rate photographer could photograph the same scenes with
>both a Nikon and a Canon, have large prints made, and there isn't a
>person reading this post who could tell what brand of camera they were
>taken with by looking at the prints. Incidentally, I own two Nikon
>cameras and two Canon cameras and see no superiority of one brand over
>the other. There are things I like and dislike about each camera, but
>these things are specific to the camera.
>
>Joe

Seconded!

I purchased a Canon 30D when they were first released, but I looked
real hard at Nikon and Pentax. All had favorable points over the
others, but I chose the Canon strictly because of the lower high iso
noise over the others. This was based on reading every comparison I
could find and looking at lots of high iso photos posted for all of
the cameras. I have suggested both Nikon and Canon to people who
asked, based on their intended uses.

I think some people simply must bash whatever they don't own (sour
grapes) or base their opinion on an isolated case. Others just like to
stir up trouble to give themselves a sense of importance.

Bill

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Rich

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Since: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 132



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 25, 3:41 pm, Joseph Miller <mil....DeleteThis@ucolick.org> wrote:
> Having read their reviews very carefully for years I always thought they
> had a pro-Nikon bias. It always seemed to me that they picked on very
> minor things to complain about with Canon cameras. When they compared
> pictures taken with Canon and Nikon cameras, they often said there was
> no difference or the Nikon was better, when it looked obvious to me that
> the Canon was better in just the area they were comparing. So, after
> being surprised after reading the long set of posts from people who
> think they are biased in favor of Canon, I guess it may not be so
> obvious that there is any brand bias and what it is. They do have
> different reviewers, so maybe that could account for different biases.
>
> However, in the end, one shouldn't really care all that much IF one
> knows how to use reviews. ALL reviews are biased, if not by brand, at
> least by the reviewers' tastes or preferences.

And that is hardly the same thing as skewing a review to show a camera
in a better or worse light.
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Rich

External


Since: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 132



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:50 pm
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 25, 5:31 pm, Bill <carver-rem... DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:41:52 -0700, Joseph Miller <mil... DeleteThis @ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Having read their reviews very carefully for years I always thought they
> >had a pro-Nikon bias. It always seemed to me that they picked on very
> >minor things to complain about with Canon cameras. When they compared
> >pictures taken with Canon and Nikon cameras, they often said there was
> >no difference or the Nikon was better, when it looked obvious to me that
> >the Canon was better in just the area they were comparing. So, after
> >being surprised after reading the long set of posts from people who
> >think they are biased in favor of Canon, I guess it may not be so
> >obvious that there is any brand bias and what it is. They do have
> >different reviewers, so maybe that could account for different biases.
>
> >However, in the end, one shouldn't really care all that much IF one
> >knows how to use reviews. ALL reviews are biased, if not by brand, at
> >least by the reviewers' tastes or preferences. Even the size of the
> >reviewer's hands can make a difference in what they think about a
> >camera! I use reviews only as a rough guide. I hope that they will
> >expose major faults or aspects of performance that might bother or
> >please me, but in the end I must try out the items themselves and do my
> >own evaluations before making a choice. The Canon 400D fits my hands
> >perfectly, for example, while most reviewers said it was too small.
>
> >All recent Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras are superb. In competant hands,
> >they are capable of taking stunning pictures. I would be willing to bet
> >that a first-rate photographer could photograph the same scenes with
> >both a Nikon and a Canon, have large prints made, and there isn't a
> >person reading this post who could tell what brand of camera they were
> >taken with by looking at the prints. Incidentally, I own two Nikon
> >cameras and two Canon cameras and see no superiority of one brand over
> >the other. There are things I like and dislike about each camera, but
> >these things are specific to the camera.
>
> >Joe
>
> Seconded!
>
> I purchased a Canon 30D when they were first released, but I looked
> real hard at Nikon and Pentax. All had favorable points over the
> others, but I chose the Canon strictly because of the lower high iso
> noise over the others. This was based on reading every comparison I
> could find and looking at lots of high iso photos posted for all of
> the cameras. I have suggested both Nikon and Canon to people who
> asked, based on their intended uses.
>
> I think some people simply must bash whatever they don't own (sour
> grapes) or base their opinion on an isolated case. Others just like to
> stir up trouble to give themselves a sense of importance.
>
> Bill

"Isolated case?" How blinkered ARE you Canonophiles?
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dwight

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Since: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 96



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Bill" <carver-rem-33.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1722i39rk80cnjn3cjpji71lih7gu45r32@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:41:52 -0700, Joseph Miller <miller.TakeThisOut@ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>>Having read their reviews very carefully for years I always thought they
>>had a pro-Nikon bias. It always seemed to me that they picked on very
>>minor things to complain about with Canon cameras. When they compared
>>pictures taken with Canon and Nikon cameras, they often said there was
>>no difference or the Nikon was better, when it looked obvious to me that
>>the Canon was better in just the area they were comparing. So, after
>>being surprised after reading the long set of posts from people who
>>think they are biased in favor of Canon, I guess it may not be so
>>obvious that there is any brand bias and what it is. They do have
>>different reviewers, so maybe that could account for different biases.
>>
>>However, in the end, one shouldn't really care all that much IF one
>>knows how to use reviews. ALL reviews are biased, if not by brand, at
>>least by the reviewers' tastes or preferences. Even the size of the
>>reviewer's hands can make a difference in what they think about a
>>camera! I use reviews only as a rough guide. I hope that they will
>>expose major faults or aspects of performance that might bother or
>>please me, but in the end I must try out the items themselves and do my
>>own evaluations before making a choice. The Canon 400D fits my hands
>>perfectly, for example, while most reviewers said it was too small.
>>
>>All recent Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras are superb. In competant hands,
>>they are capable of taking stunning pictures. I would be willing to bet
>>that a first-rate photographer could photograph the same scenes with
>>both a Nikon and a Canon, have large prints made, and there isn't a
>>person reading this post who could tell what brand of camera they were
>>taken with by looking at the prints. Incidentally, I own two Nikon
>>cameras and two Canon cameras and see no superiority of one brand over
>>the other. There are things I like and dislike about each camera, but
>>these things are specific to the camera.
>>
>>Joe
>
> Seconded!
>
> I purchased a Canon 30D when they were first released, but I looked
> real hard at Nikon and Pentax. All had favorable points over the
> others, but I chose the Canon strictly because of the lower high iso
> noise over the others. This was based on reading every comparison I
> could find and looking at lots of high iso photos posted for all of
> the cameras. I have suggested both Nikon and Canon to people who
> asked, based on their intended uses.
>
> I think some people simply must bash whatever they don't own (sour
> grapes) or base their opinion on an isolated case. Others just like to
> stir up trouble to give themselves a sense of importance.
>
> Bill

What're you guys trying to do?

Make sense?

dwight
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SMS

External


Since: Sep 08, 2005
Posts: 971



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:08 pm
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Bill wrote:

>> All recent Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras are superb. In competant hands,
>> they are capable of taking stunning pictures. I would be willing to bet
>> that a first-rate photographer could photograph the same scenes with
>> both a Nikon and a Canon, have large prints made, and there isn't a
>> person reading this post who could tell what brand of camera they were
>> taken with by looking at the prints. Incidentally, I own two Nikon
>> cameras and two Canon cameras and see no superiority of one brand over
>> the other. There are things I like and dislike about each camera, but
>> these things are specific to the camera.
>>
>> Joe
>
> Seconded!
>
> I purchased a Canon 30D when they were first released, but I looked
> real hard at Nikon and Pentax. All had favorable points over the
> others, but I chose the Canon strictly because of the lower high iso
> noise over the others. This was based on reading every comparison I
> could find and looking at lots of high iso photos posted for all of
> the cameras. I have suggested both Nikon and Canon to people who
> asked, based on their intended uses.

Maybe not a person reading this thread could tell the difference, but a
professional looking at high ISO photos taken with a relatively noisy
camera could definitely tell the difference between that camera and say
a Canon 30D.

I was at a party tonight, and was amazed to see someone using an old
Canon A1 film camera, you know the camera with the FD lens mount. He
later brought out his Digital Rebel, complaining that the lenses from
his FD couldn't be used on the Digital Rebel!
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Ron Hunter

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Since: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 2799



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:10 am
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Bill wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:41:52 -0700, Joseph Miller <miller.TakeThisOut@ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Having read their reviews very carefully for years I always thought they
>> had a pro-Nikon bias. It always seemed to me that they picked on very
>> minor things to complain about with Canon cameras. When they compared
>> pictures taken with Canon and Nikon cameras, they often said there was
>> no difference or the Nikon was better, when it looked obvious to me that
>> the Canon was better in just the area they were comparing. So, after
>> being surprised after reading the long set of posts from people who
>> think they are biased in favor of Canon, I guess it may not be so
>> obvious that there is any brand bias and what it is. They do have
>> different reviewers, so maybe that could account for different biases.
>>
>> However, in the end, one shouldn't really care all that much IF one
>> knows how to use reviews. ALL reviews are biased, if not by brand, at
>> least by the reviewers' tastes or preferences. Even the size of the
>> reviewer's hands can make a difference in what they think about a
>> camera! I use reviews only as a rough guide. I hope that they will
>> expose major faults or aspects of performance that might bother or
>> please me, but in the end I must try out the items themselves and do my
>> own evaluations before making a choice. The Canon 400D fits my hands
>> perfectly, for example, while most reviewers said it was too small.
>>
>> All recent Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras are superb. In competant hands,
>> they are capable of taking stunning pictures. I would be willing to bet
>> that a first-rate photographer could photograph the same scenes with
>> both a Nikon and a Canon, have large prints made, and there isn't a
>> person reading this post who could tell what brand of camera they were
>> taken with by looking at the prints. Incidentally, I own two Nikon
>> cameras and two Canon cameras and see no superiority of one brand over
>> the other. There are things I like and dislike about each camera, but
>> these things are specific to the camera.
>>
>> Joe
>
> Seconded!
>
> I purchased a Canon 30D when they were first released, but I looked
> real hard at Nikon and Pentax. All had favorable points over the
> others, but I chose the Canon strictly because of the lower high iso
> noise over the others. This was based on reading every comparison I
> could find and looking at lots of high iso photos posted for all of
> the cameras. I have suggested both Nikon and Canon to people who
> asked, based on their intended uses.
>
> I think some people simply must bash whatever they don't own (sour
> grapes) or base their opinion on an isolated case. Others just like to
> stir up trouble to give themselves a sense of importance.
>
> Bill
>
>
I have found all of the reviews to be rather subjective, and
inconsistent. Things praised on one camera are listed as disadvantages
on another, and features that are exactly the same on two different
cameras may get compliments on one, and be degraded by the other.
Still, they are useful for making your own choices, and the photo
examples are quite useful.
I wish they would give more attention to reviewing a camera based on its
probable use by most buyers of that kind of camera. Complaining that a
$200 P&S camera doesn't have good high ISO performance probably isn't
really useful as this is something that 'goes with the territory'.
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Bill

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Since: Jun 10, 2007
Posts: 42



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:39 am
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:50:14 -0700, Rich <rander3127 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:



>> I think some people simply must bash whatever they don't own (sour
>> grapes) or base their opinion on an isolated case. Others just like to
>> stir up trouble to give themselves a sense of importance.
>>
>> Bill
>
>"Isolated case?" How blinkered ARE you Canonophiles?


Sorry Rich. I didn''t realize hat you had such vast experience with
Canon cameras. I'm sure that the next time that I plan to purchase a
new camera, I will seek your sage advice. NOT!

Bill
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Bill

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Since: Jun 10, 2007
Posts: 42



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:48 am
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 03:10:43 -0500, Ron Hunter <rphunter DeleteThis @charter.net>
wrote:


>>
>I have found all of the reviews to be rather subjective, and
>inconsistent. Things praised on one camera are listed as disadvantages
>on another, and features that are exactly the same on two different
>cameras may get compliments on one, and be degraded by the other.
>Still, they are useful for making your own choices, and the photo
>examples are quite useful.
>I wish they would give more attention to reviewing a camera based on its
>probable use by most buyers of that kind of camera. Complaining that a
>$200 P&S camera doesn't have good high ISO performance probably isn't
>really useful as this is something that 'goes with the territory'.

Ron,

I doubt that you will find a human reviewer who is completely
un-biased. I read all reviews that I can find, including reviews from
users (which are probably more biased than the pros).

As you point out, one reviewer touts a feature as a positive when
another finds it to be a negative. You really need to think about
your intended use, list the important features to you and make your
decision based on the general concensus of those features..

Bill
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The Spider Formally Seate

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Since: Oct 21, 2007
Posts: 25



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Personally, I could care less. I would never use any web sites reviews as
the sole decision making factor. Also since the last time I checked machines
do make write reviews humans do to expect a human to review something,
anything with no biased is just wishful thinking. This is why when trying to
decide what to buy you need to do all of the research you can, read what is
being said and decide for yourself if the points brought up are of any
concern for you.

Go to any web site that offers any form of review (let's use Amazon.com) and
you will find all kinds of dumbass people harping about the stupidest
things. You have to decide for yourself if they are full of it, didn't both
to take the time to learn it or really came across something that is trully
a problem or flaw.

The Spider
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Ron Hunter

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Since: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 2799



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:28 am
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

The Spider Formally Seated Next To Little Miss Muffet wrote:
> Personally, I could care less. I would never use any web sites reviews
> as the sole decision making factor. Also since the last time I checked
> machines do make write reviews humans do to expect a human to review
> something, anything with no biased is just wishful thinking. This is why
> when trying to decide what to buy you need to do all of the research you
> can, read what is being said and decide for yourself if the points
> brought up are of any concern for you.
>
> Go to any web site that offers any form of review (let's use Amazon.com)
> and you will find all kinds of dumbass people harping about the
> stupidest things. You have to decide for yourself if they are full of
> it, didn't both to take the time to learn it or really came across
> something that is trully a problem or flaw.
>
> The Spider

Yes, I like to read the customer comments about the products. If I seen
10 comments, and 8 are highly positive, and two are negative, then I
don't put too much faith in the negative ones. However, if virtually
all are negative about a certain point, then I pay attention to that.
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John Turco

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Since: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 1086



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:05 am
Post subject: Re: dpreview bias? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Joseph Miller wrote:
>
> Having read their reviews very carefully for years I always thought they
> had a pro-Nikon bias. It always seemed to me that they picked on very
> minor things to complain about with Canon cameras. When they compared
> pictures taken with Canon and Nikon cameras, they often said there was
> no difference or the Nikon was better, when it looked obvious to me that
> the Canon was better in just the area they were comparing. So, after
> being surprised after reading the long set of posts from people who
> think they are biased in favor of Canon, I guess it may not be so
> obvious that there is any brand bias and what it is. They do have
> different reviewers, so maybe that could account for different biases.

<edited, for brevity>

Hello, Joseph:

Hey, a little bias is okay, provided one is fair about it. Very Happy


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur RemoveThis @concentric.net>
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