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What will Pentax do next?

 
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Mike Henley

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Since: Mar 05, 2006
Posts: 51



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:43 am
Post subject: Re: What will Pentax do next? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital>slr-systems, others (more info?)

Polly Pentax wrote:
> "Nicholas Wittebol" <nicholas.wittebol.RemoveThis@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:MMSdneKUj5LTEWPfRVn-3w@rogers.com...
> >I find it funny that you acknowledge that you are asking for speculation,
> >and then later discard information about a future 8, 10, 12 mp anti-shake
> >replacement because it is just speculation...
>
>
>
> Point taken - but I can't say that it's been much help
>
> I don't expect anyone to know the inner workings of Pentax Corporation, I
> was just asking what *others* would do if they faced the same dilemma.

I don't know about the inner workings of Pentax Corporation, but I know
this - there's been many corporations that suffered a loss year after
year and kept going, and Pentax is no more likely to quit digital now
than it was to quit 35mm two or three decades ago when the medium was
different but the market situation was more or less the same duel it is
now between Canon and Nikon and the rest left fighting for scraps.

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Tony Polson

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 17) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:06 pm
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"Polly Pentax" <petax.TakeThisOut@polly.net> wrote:
>
>Hi, Tony.
>
>I think that the difference with Canon is that you can be almost 100%
>certain that they will still be around in a couple of years, and will have
>good upgrade models available to purchase.
>
>Whether the same is true for Pentax must be debatable, given their current
>position.

Pentax are in a stronger position than some.

The digital imaging divisions of Sony and Konica Minolta are in deep
trouble. They have announced a joint venture to co-develop DSLRs, but
that is more a sign of their joint desperation than anything else.

Olympus desperately needs a 10+ MP pro model to justify the top
quality Zuiko Digital lenses. Olympus has wisely ditched Kodak,
formerly a Four Thirds partner, for Panasonic. Olympus and Panasonic
will shortly introduce at least three new DSLRs between them, but
until then, the jury is out on whether Four Thirds will prosper in the
medium to long term.

Pentax are still making money, and can count on a great many owners of
Pentax point and shoot film and digital cameras to trade up to a DSLR
of the same brand.

>The D is available at Park Cameras for £600 - but they only have a few.
>No-one else that I know of (apart from this single one at £450) has them in
>stock at all, and Pentax UK also have no stocks left. So, it's buy now, or
>almost certainly do without in the future - UNLESS Pentax come up with a
>replacement.

You might like to refer to the review of the Pentax *ist DL in the
issue of Amateur Photographer due out on Tuesday. The review
concluded that the *ist DL has the best image quality of the three
Pentax *ist DSLRs.

>I also take Kitt's point that, if it's good enough, it doesn't matter
>whether any new bodies are forthcoming - except for the fact that I'll be
>reluctant to add expensive lenses without a clear upgrade path.

Then don't add them! Just buy the kit lens, or the 18-35mm FAJ, both
of which are cheap but more than adequate.

>Will Pentax keep tolerating losses on their digital imaging division?,
>that's the question. In fact, 'will' the promised Medium Format model,
>mentioned by John, actually materialise?

Pentax aren't losing money. Konica Minolta, Sony and Olympus are.

>I have to say, it's at times like this that I wish I had a collection of
>Cannon or Nikon lenses, instead of Pentax.

On the contrary, most Pentax lenses have desirable optical qualities
that are lacking in all but a few, mostly expensive Canon EF lenses
and AF Nikkors. Be glad that you have them.

My advice is; find an *ist D, or a DS, or a DL, don't pay more than
£500, and enjoy your purchase to the full.

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papenfussDIESPAM

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Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 6



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:06 pm
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Tony Polson <tp.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
: You might like to refer to the review of the Pentax *ist DL in the
: issue of Amateur Photographer due out on Tuesday. The review
: concluded that the *ist DL has the best image quality of the three
: Pentax *ist DSLRs.

How is that? They've got the same sensor. ... or it comparing the JPG out of
the camera? IIRC the -D and -DS were chastised for not enough sharpening in the
in-camera JPG. With the same sensor (barring analog signal/noise issue flaws), RAW is
RAW. All of the image processing is done outside the camera.

I shoot exclusively RAW on my -DS for that reason. I don't want to limit my
options by any "toy" modes of the camera trying to be clever. It's a digital light
box, exposure meter, and histogram-displayer. That's all.

-Cory

--

*************************************************************************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
*************************************************************************
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John Bean

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Since: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 466



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:31 pm
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:03:01 +0000 (UTC),
papenfussDIESPAM.TakeThisOut@juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu wrote:

>Tony Polson <tp.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:
>: You might like to refer to the review of the Pentax *ist DL in the
>: issue of Amateur Photographer due out on Tuesday. The review
>: concluded that the *ist DL has the best image quality of the three
>: Pentax *ist DSLRs.
>
> How is that? They've got the same sensor. ... or it comparing the JPG out of
>the camera? IIRC the -D and -DS were chastised for not enough sharpening in the
>in-camera JPG. With the same sensor (barring analog signal/noise issue flaws), RAW is
>RAW. All of the image processing is done outside the camera.

The DL may have a less aggressive anti-alias filter. I've
seen examples of quite bad colour moire from the DL,
something I haven't seen from my DS.
>
> I shoot exclusively RAW on my -DS for that reason. I don't want to limit my
>options by any "toy" modes of the camera trying to be clever. It's a digital light
>box, exposure meter, and histogram-displayer. That's all.

That's a rather elitist attitude. I use anything that I find
useful, the "toy" modes don't preclude the use of raw.
Perhaps you never need continuous focus for example, which
is only available on the DS in one of the "toy" modes.



--
Regards

John Bean
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Tony Polson

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 20) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:44 pm
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papenfussDIESPAM DeleteThis @juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu wrote:

>Tony Polson <tp DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote:
>: You might like to refer to the review of the Pentax *ist DL in the
>: issue of Amateur Photographer due out on Tuesday. The review
>: concluded that the *ist DL has the best image quality of the three
>: Pentax *ist DSLRs.
>
> How is that? They've got the same sensor.


The Nikon D100 also has the same sensor. All three of the Pentax
DSLRs (*ist D, DS, DL) have better image quality than the D100.

Go figure.
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Tony Polson

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 21) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:46 pm
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papenfussDIESPAM RemoveThis @juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu wrote:
>
>I just get tired of reviews where different models are unfairly compared
>against one another. I tend to think that comparing things like image quality (in
>particular sensitivity and noise) should be done with a RAW capture and converted with
>the same RAW converter program.


That's a valid point.

However, in reality, most users of entry-level DSLRs will shoot JPEGs.
Perhaps comparisons should be done using RAW *and* JPEG performance,
which will obviously give different conclusions in some cases.
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Paul Mitchum

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 275



(Msg. 22) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:46 pm
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Tony Polson <tp.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:

> papenfussDIESPAM.DeleteThis@juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu wrote:
> >
> >I just get tired of reviews where different models are unfairly compared
> >against one another. I tend to think that comparing things like image
> >quality (in particular sensitivity and noise) should be done with a RAW
> >capture and converted with the same RAW converter program.
>
> That's a valid point.
>
> However, in reality, most users of entry-level DSLRs will shoot JPEGs.
> Perhaps comparisons should be done using RAW *and* JPEG performance, which
> will obviously give different conclusions in some cases.

When I got my point-and-shoot Olympus, I made sure it could give me RAW
(or, in that case, ORF) files. 'Entry level' means many, many different
things.

A thorough review of a given camera, especially in comparison with
another one, would include every conceivable mode of comparison,
including both RAW and JPEG quality. But such a review might be, like...
hard and junk. It would take time, and otherwise be annoying and require
an open mind and stuff. What a drag.
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Tony Polson

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 23) Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:42 pm
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usenet DeleteThis @mile23.c0m (Paul Mitchum) wrote:

>A thorough review of a given camera, especially in comparison with
>another one, would include every conceivable mode of comparison,
>including both RAW and JPEG quality. But such a review might be, like...
>hard and junk. It would take time, and otherwise be annoying and require
>an open mind and stuff. What a drag.


Yes, the facts are just too boring to waste any time on them.

Wink
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Polly Pentax

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 24) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:12 am
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"Marc Sabatella" <marc.TakeThisOut@outsideshore.com> wrote in message
news:11fvl48d71qfr3e@corp.supernews.com...
>> The *istD still seems (to me) to be far and away the best Pentax dslr,
>> the
>> DS was tolerable - but the DL (with its 'digital filters') is nothing
> short
>> of a 'Fun-Cam'.
>
> I think you really need to question your basic assumptions. Really, there
> are far fewer difference between these cameras than your characterizations
> imply. Among the differences between the D and DS, many reviews have
> concluded they make the DS the better camera overall - there are some
> pretty
> significant number of upgrades and not that many downgrades. Even if
> one's
> preferences are such that they would weigh in favor of the D, I don't
> think
> anyone really familiar would be reasonable say it was "far and away" the
> better camera. Now, I think the DL is more obviously intended to be less
> of
> a camera than the DS, but even so, it isn't *that* much less if you
> actually
> compare the specs. The fact that they added a few more P&S type features
> for those who want them in no way diminishes the usefulness of the camera.
> A less sophisticated AF system could be an issue for some, and of course
> no
> one likes to see viewfinders get smaller, but those who have tried both
> report being impressed with the DL.
>
>> part of me thinks that, given their dire economic
>> situation, Pentax might not even be making digital cameras this time next
>> year.
>
> I guess I've seen nothing to make me think the situation is that dire.
>
>> I have to admit to feeling a bit pessimistic about the future of Pentax -
>> their three dslr's have been a dismal progression downwards in terms of
>> features and quality.
>
> Given that the market in general seems to have found the DS an improvement
> over the D (and the DL is too new to say), I wouldn't be that concerned
> about this progression.
>
>> So, what would you do? - chance a new body announcement?, buy the *istD
> and
>> know I've got a replacement if/when necessary?, or sell up and go for a
>> surer bet like Canon?
>
> Personally, I'd wait. If Pentax fails to produce an upgrade to the D, and
> you feel it important to have a backup body, there will still be plenty of
> DL's around, and despite what you say, it still seems to be a perfectly
> good
> camera. If there were things about the D that made you prefer Pentax to
> the
> others in the first place, the DL really doesn't take take many of those
> away, and switching to Canon or Nikon won't suddenly give you those
> features
> now if they didn't then. Also, you could simply not get any backup body
> at
> all. When your current camera dies, see if Pentax has something available
> you like. If not, well then, *that's* the time to switch to another
> manufacturer. Technology being what it is, the same $1000 (or whatever)
> will get you a much better body when your current D dies than it will
> now.<



Thanks for a comprehensive reply Mark.

My preference for the D is based on the greater degree of manual controls,
the use of CF cards, PTTL on-board flash, wireless flash capability, the
well designed battery grip (that doesn't require removal of the battery
compartment door like some brands!), the program 'shift' facility, and a
perception that it is generally built to a higher standard than its
siblings, given its initial target market and price.

I think that the primary reason it failed to sell very well was the
ridiculously high price set by Pentax - had they been more realistic I think
it would have really taken off.

As it is, I think that all of us owe a debt to Canon, whether we use their
cameras or not, for forcing the price of all dslr's down to more affordable
levels.

Having given the matter some thought I've decided to buy the extra body - it
can always be sold (perhaps with not too much of a loss, given the revised
£450 price tag) if Pentax do come up trumps with a D successor.

Besides, knowing Pentax, any D replacement is likely to be quite expensive,
and it might be several months before diminishing demand forces the price
down.

Thanks again to you and all others who chipped in with their advice.
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Pete D

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Since: Sep 14, 2005
Posts: 733



(Msg. 25) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:47 am
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"Marc Sabatella" <marc.DeleteThis@outsideshore.com> wrote in message
news:11fvl47cdh5153c@corp.supernews.com...
>> As far as focusing, I've heard that the autofocus only functions
> continuously
>> on sports mode.
>
> True on the DS, not the DL.

Does that mean the DL does continous focus in all modes or not at all?

Thanks.
>
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Pete D

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Since: Sep 14, 2005
Posts: 733



(Msg. 26) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:48 am
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"Tony Polson" <tp.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4m7vf1h85eje8eppdpqe04m2ufl4ap52pr@4ax.com...
> papenfussDIESPAM.RemoveThis@juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu wrote:
>
>>Tony Polson <tp.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
>>: You might like to refer to the review of the Pentax *ist DL in the
>>: issue of Amateur Photographer due out on Tuesday. The review
>>: concluded that the *ist DL has the best image quality of the three
>>: Pentax *ist DSLRs.
>>
>> How is that? They've got the same sensor.
>
>
> The Nikon D100 also has the same sensor. All three of the Pentax
> DSLRs (*ist D, DS, DL) have better image quality than the D100.
>
> Go figure.

I know the D70 has the same sensor as the DS and DL and the D70 is better
in JPEG mode but they are pretty much the same in RAW mode.
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Mark Roberts

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Since: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 60



(Msg. 27) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:46 am
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"Polly Pentax" <petax.RemoveThis@polly.net> wrote:

>Having given the matter some thought I've decided to buy the extra body - it
>can always be sold (perhaps with not too much of a loss, given the revised
>£450 price tag) if Pentax do come up trumps with a D successor.
>
> Besides, knowing Pentax, any D replacement is likely to be quite expensive,
>and it might be several months before diminishing demand forces the price
>down.

Expect a DS replacement early next year (8 megapixels, Pentax-made CMOS
sensor).
Probably an ist-D replacement shortly thereafter, but I have no
information about the specifications for that yet.

I'm probably going to stick with my ist-D until I get some idea of what
the replacement camera is going to be like. Then I'll decide what to get
as a second digital body.

--
Mark Roberts
Photography and writing
www.robertstech.com
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Tony Polson

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 28) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:17 pm
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"Marc Sabatella" <marc DeleteThis @outsideshore.com> wrote:

>I think you really need to question your basic assumptions. Really, there
>are far fewer difference between these cameras than your characterizations
>imply. Among the differences between the D and DS, many reviews have
>concluded they make the DS the better camera overall - there are some pretty
>significant number of upgrades and not that many downgrades. Even if one's
>preferences are such that they would weigh in favor of the D, I don't think
>anyone really familiar would be reasonable say it was "far and away" the
>better camera.


That's a good analysis. I chose the D over the DS but it was a narrow
decision. Several Pentax-using friends recommended the DS because
they are very happy with theirs.
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Tony Polson

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Since: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 29) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:18 pm
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"Polly Pentax" <petax.DeleteThis@polly.net> wrote:

>Having given the matter some thought I've decided to buy the extra body - it
>can always be sold (perhaps with not too much of a loss, given the revised
>£450 price tag) if Pentax do come up trumps with a D successor.
>
> Besides, knowing Pentax, any D replacement is likely to be quite expensive,
>and it might be several months before diminishing demand forces the price
>down.
>
>Thanks again to you and all others who chipped in with their advice.


Well done. You made a good decision, and got a good price.
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papenfussDIESPAM

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Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 6



(Msg. 30) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:39 pm
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Mark Roberts <mark DeleteThis @robertstech.com> wrote:
: Expect a DS replacement early next year (8 megapixels, Pentax-made CMOS
: sensor).

Pentax is going to build their own sensors?

: Probably an ist-D replacement shortly thereafter, but I have no
: information about the specifications for that yet.

I would think that the ist-D replacement would come first, since it's longer
in the tooth and can command a higher price. Aside from better and/or bigger sensors,
I can't think of much to improve on that firmware updates can't fix. Of course, I'm
not marketing, either... Smile

-Cory

--

*************************************************************************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
*************************************************************************
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