A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it..

"SelfImporantName" <anywhere RemoveThis @anyplace.net> wrote in message
news:677u83du7dhbp08l6hinh57naqvppueh9s@4ax.com...
> Considering that a dSLR is using a mechanical shutter, just like the old
> ones in
> film SLRs, the true fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than its
> highest
> flash-sync speed -- when the imaging chip is completely exposed without
> either
> shutter-curtain covering any portion of it.
>
> Sure, you can crank up the shutter-speed by moving those two
> shutter-curtains
> closer together, making a very very narrow slit pass in front of the
> imaging
> chip. But that just means that *anything* that's moving in that image will
> be
> distorted. Just like in the SLR days. The beating of a bird's wing will be
> unnaturally curved. A circular tire passing by will be elongated and oval.
> A
> baseball pitcher's arm will be slightly bent in the wrong places. A diver
> falling into a pool of water will be unnaturally shorter or longer than
> they
> should be. (Or unnaturally distorted diagonally if the shutter curtains in
> your
> dSLR move horizontally.) The very same problems that we faced in SLR days.

Points for an original viewpoint, but ... so? Focal plane shutter
distortion is nothing new. People are used to it, and accept it as an
indication of speed. Furthermore, digital techniques can be used to
minimize the distortion, or transfer it to the less important background, if
desired.
--
Mike Russell - www.curvemeister.com
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

Sorry to burst your bubble but your P&S does not have a shutter.
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:34:05 +1000, "Pete D"
<Doug.RemoveThis@is.a.moron.com> wrote:

>Sorry to burst your bubble but your P&S does not have a shutter.
>

It *might* have Pete, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt
on that one.

It's unlikely though

--
John Bean
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

"John Bean" <waterfoot RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:adpu835qo9gnu89vqedue4oif7j1aod1at@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:34:05 +1000, "Pete D"
> <Doug RemoveThis @is.a.moron.com> wrote:
>
>>Sorry to burst your bubble but your P&S does not have a shutter.
>>
>
> It *might* have Pete, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt
> on that one.
>
> It's unlikely though
>
> --
> John Bean

Maybe! Not many do!
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

In article <677u83du7dhbp08l6hinh57naqvppueh9s.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
SelfImporantName <anywhere.DeleteThis@anyplace.net> wrote:
>Considering that a dSLR is using a mechanical shutter, just like the old ones in
>film SLRs, the true fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than its highest
>flash-sync speed -- when the imaging chip is completely exposed without either
>shutter-curtain covering any portion of it.
>
>There's just no getting around this mechanical and image-distorting limitation
>in a dSLR. Just like there was no getting around this limitation in last
>century's SLRs. It's built into the very design of it.

A dSLR can have an electronic shutter in addition to the mechanical one.

Nikon's older CCD based cameras provide flash synchronization upto the
highest shutter speed (1/16000).


--
That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
-- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

SelfImporantName wrote:
<snip self-important ramblings>
What a perfect choice for a posting name! But did you have to use so
many lines justifying it? Couldn't you just have posted the obvious fact
that you are a self-importnat jerk?
Allen
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

"John Bean" <waterfoot DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:34:05 +1000, "Pete D"
> <Doug DeleteThis @is.a.moron.com> wrote:
>
>>Sorry to burst your bubble but your P&S does not have a shutter.
>
> It *might* have Pete, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt
> on that one. It's unlikely though

Actually, many of the better P&S cameras have shutters. The Sony sensors
require a mechanical shutter to avoid really nasty smear problems.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:37:31 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
<davidjl.RemoveThis@gol.com> wrote:

>
>"John Bean" <waterfoot.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:34:05 +1000, "Pete D"
>> <Doug.RemoveThis@is.a.moron.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Sorry to burst your bubble but your P&S does not have a shutter.
>>
>> It *might* have Pete, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>> on that one. It's unlikely though
>
>Actually, many of the better P&S cameras have shutters. The Sony sensors
>require a mechanical shutter to avoid really nasty smear problems.

But to split hairs even finer David, they usually (always?)
just use the aperture mecanism for the purpose so they still
don't have a dedicated shutter in the same sense a SLR has.

--
John Bean
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 00:35:07 -0500, SelfImporantName
<anywhere DeleteThis @anyplace.net> wrote:

>Considering that a dSLR is using a mechanical shutter, just like the old ones in
>film SLRs, the true fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than its highest
>flash-sync speed -- when the imaging chip is completely exposed without either
>shutter-curtain covering any portion of it.

>There's just no getting around this mechanical and image-distorting limitation
>in a dSLR. Just like there was no getting around this limitation in last
>century's SLRs. It's built into the very design of it.
>
>Pity.
>
>They should always mention this in any reviews on dSLRs, so all those
>"intelligent" pros will also realize they are paying to get last-century's
>faults and limitations.
>
>It's so nice having an advanced P&S camera that will sync the flash up to
>1/2500th of a second. Proving that that's its true shutter-speed. Zero image
>distortions caused by a mechanically slow shutter-curtain.
>
..............total nonsense deleted............................
>
>(If I had just bought a dslr today and thought about this, I'd be *really*
>pissed about my purchase right now. I wonder why all those other dSLR owners
>never mention this to newbies when it's so painfully obvious.)

Focal plane shutter travel has not been a factor for more than fifty
years and you would know that if you only even used, let alone owned,
one. If you can stop the action there will be no visible distortion.
Shooting a monitor or TV screen at speeds faster than their refresh
rate will cause distortion regardless of shutter type.
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

John Bean <waterfoot.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:37:31 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
> <davidjl.DeleteThis@gol.com> wrote:

>>Actually, many of the better P&S cameras have shutters. The Sony sensors
>>require a mechanical shutter to avoid really nasty smear problems.
>
> But to split hairs even finer David, they usually (always?)
> just use the aperture mecanism for the purpose so they still
> don't have a dedicated shutter in the same sense a SLR has.

But that's no different to many 35mm point and shoots, at the end of the
day it's still a shutter - it opens and closes - even if it also acts as
the iris.
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

"John Bean" <waterfoot RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> "David J. Littleboy" <davidjl RemoveThis @gol.com> wrote:
>>"John Bean" <waterfoot RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:34:05 +1000, "Pete D"
>>> <Doug RemoveThis @is.a.moron.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Sorry to burst your bubble but your P&S does not have a shutter.
>>>
>>> It *might* have Pete, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>>> on that one. It's unlikely though
>>
>>Actually, many of the better P&S cameras have shutters. The Sony sensors
>>require a mechanical shutter to avoid really nasty smear problems.
>
> But to split hairs even finer David, they usually (always?)
> just use the aperture mecanism for the purpose

I think you are splitting hairs beyond what even I would. Leaf shutters live
in the lens at the same point as the aperture, but in film cameras, were
always a mechanically separate structure. I doubt that that design would
change. (I have taken apart leaf shutter film cameras, but I've never
disassembled a P&S dcam.)

> so they still
> don't have a dedicated shutter in the same sense a SLR has.

Again, a leaf shutter has always been seen as very much the same sort of
thing as a FP shutter.

(Four (Agfa folder, Rollei TLR, Fuji GS645S, Mamiya 7) out of five (vs.
Mamiya 645) of the film cameras here have leaf shutters, so I'm rather
familiar with the beasts...)

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

On 07 Jul 2007 14:30:19 GMT, Gordon Freeman
<GF RemoveThis @valve.invalid> wrote:

>John Bean <waterfoot RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:37:31 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
>> <davidjl RemoveThis @gol.com> wrote:
>
>>>Actually, many of the better P&S cameras have shutters. The Sony sensors
>>>require a mechanical shutter to avoid really nasty smear problems.
>>
>> But to split hairs even finer David, they usually (always?)
>> just use the aperture mecanism for the purpose so they still
>> don't have a dedicated shutter in the same sense a SLR has.
>
>But that's no different to many 35mm point and shoots, at the end of the
>day it's still a shutter - it opens and closes - even if it also acts as
>the iris.

Yes and no, Cheap film cameras did this purely to save cost,
better cameras usually have a "proper" shutter. But even
high-end digital P&S cameras use this method if they are
forced to do so, normally they use no shutter of any sort. I
can't think of any that have a "proper" shutter.

SLRs - film or digital - invariably use a mechanical
shutter.

Anyway it's all a bit moot to the OPs attempted criticism of
focal plane shutters in SLRs

--
John Bean
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it.. 

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 23:44:24 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
<davidjl.RemoveThis@gol.com> wrote:

>
>"John Bean" <waterfoot.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "David J. Littleboy" <davidjl.RemoveThis@gol.com> wrote:
>>>"John Bean" <waterfoot.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:34:05 +1000, "Pete D"
>>>> <Doug.RemoveThis@is.a.moron.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Sorry to burst your bubble but your P&S does not have a shutter.
>>>>
>>>> It *might* have Pete, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>>>> on that one. It's unlikely though
>>>
>>>Actually, many of the better P&S cameras have shutters. The Sony sensors
>>>require a mechanical shutter to avoid really nasty smear problems.
>>
>> But to split hairs even finer David, they usually (always?)
>> just use the aperture mecanism for the purpose
>
>I think you are splitting hairs beyond what even I would. Leaf shutters live
>in the lens at the same point as the aperture, but in film cameras, were
>always a mechanically separate structure.

Exactly - a seperate mechanism, seperate controls. Shutter
and iris are not the same thing. That was all I was saying
about the lack of *dedicated* shutter, they use the aperture
blades instead.

>> so they still
>> don't have a dedicated shutter in the same sense a SLR has.
>
>Again, a leaf shutter has always been seen as very much the same sort of
>thing as a FP shutter.

A leaf shutter isn't part of a set of aperture blades, it's
a seperate, self-contained mechanism. The digital P&S
doesn't have a leaf shutter; when I said it had no
*dedicated* shutter I meant it uses the aperture blades to
perform a similar (but not quite identical) function. No
leaf shutters that I'm familiar with could match the speed
range of most digicam shutters, and there's a good reason
for that.

>(Four (Agfa folder, Rollei TLR, Fuji GS645S, Mamiya 7) out of five (vs.
>Mamiya 645) of the film cameras here have leaf shutters, so I'm rather
>familiar with the beasts...)

So am I. But we weren't arguing about leaf shutters so no
need to claim bragging rights

--
John Bean
 >> Stay informed about: A dSLR's fastest shutter-speed is really no faster than it..