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Are you converting your RAW images to DNG?

 
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JC Dill

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Since: Feb 09, 2006
Posts: 257



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:55 am
Post subject: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG?
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

Reading the DAM book (chapter 1, online), it suggests that RAW images
be converted to DNG. Googling on DNG I find that it's a format
created by Adobe in September 2004, over 2 years ago. This is the
first I've heard of this format, so apparently it's not getting widely
adopted and discussed. I'm curious if anyone here is using DNG, and
if so why you made that choice.

Thanks!

jc

--

"The nice thing about a mare is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."
~ Eileen Morgan of The Mare's Nest, PA

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Bill Hilton

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Since: Aug 09, 2005
Posts: 498



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>JC Dill wrote:
>
> Reading the DAM book (chapter 1, online), it suggests that RAW images
> be converted to DNG. ... I'm curious if anyone here is using DNG, and
> if so why you made that choice.


I'm not converting (and no one I know or photograph with converts
either) for a couple of reasons ... first, the RAW converter I prefer
doesn't read DNG format, so it's primarily a Photoshop thing right now.
Second, the early versions of the Adobe converter deleted some of the
EXIF info so if you just converted without keeping a copy of the
original RAW files you would have lost potentially valuable
information. Supposedly this has been fixed in later versions but
there's no way to be sure since the programs I sometimes use to get
EXIF info don't accept DNG and Photoshop doesn't make use of a lot of
the EXIF info that's available in my camera files.

You can convert a few and play with them in Photoshop, it's simple to
do this ...what you'll quickly learn is that to Photoshop a DNG file
looks identical to a RAW file. So as long as you have native RAW
support it's hard for me to find an argument for converting.

DNG came about because people were worried that their proprietary RAW
format files might not be supported in the future. This is a good
long-term reason to have a universal format like DNG but it's not an
immediate concern to most of us, especially if you have a mainstream
camera like a Nikon or Canon.

It seems to me there are three advantages to DNG ... one is the "in 20
years you may not be able to convert .cr2 or .crw files" ... if this
comes to pass it won't take long to batch convert copies to DNG though.

Second the DNG files are a bit smaller than RAW files so if storage
space is an issue this is a bonus. I think the DNGs I converted were
about 80-85% the size of my Canon files for example, but with external
HDs available for well under $1 a GB this isn't important to me.

Finally when a new camera comes out and you have no converter for it
except the camera maker's software you can convert to DNG (if Adobe has
a converter for it) and then use your current DNG-supported converter
with it. For example if you have Photoshop CS and buy a Canon 400d or
Nikon D2xs or D80 you will find there will be no native RAW conversion
support for these from Adobe, but once Adobe brings out a RAW -> DNG
plug in for these you can convert to DNG and then use the earlier
version of Photoshop.

I don't use it myself but I can see the advantages in some situations.
But I can get useful EXIF info like a grid of the auto-focus points
with the one(s) active in red, or the total number of shutter
actuations from programs that read only the RAW files so it would make
no sense to me to convert to DNG.

Bill

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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:23 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 8:25 am, JC Dill <jcd... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Reading the DAM book (chapter 1, online), it suggests that RAW images
> be converted to DNG. Googling on DNG I find that it's a format
> created by Adobe in September 2004, over 2 years ago. This is the
> first I've heard of this format, so apparently it's not getting widely
> adopted and discussed. I'm curious if anyone here is using DNG, and
> if so why you made that choice.

It is widely adopted and discussed. Towards the end of last year, a
survey identified that about 17% of professional photographers in North
America were using it. More than 140 (not-Adobe) products from more
than 130 companies support it in some way. The Library of Congress
identifies DNG as preferable to using any other raw formats for
purposes of digital preservation. It is discussed in DPReview most
days.

For many people, the main obstacle to using it at the moment is lack of
support from Canon, Nikon, Capture One, and Bibble. (There are other
companies and products that don't support it, but in comparison they
are relatively insignificant). Capture One will support it in version
4, recently announced. However, writers who advocate DNG typically use
Canon or Nikon so that isn't a total blocker. (Peter Krogh, the author
of the DAM Book, uses Nikon).

There are aspects where DNG is uncontroversially better than
alternative formats:

1. It is openly documented.

2. It is supported by a freely-available optional source-code-based
SDK.

3. There are public royalty-free licenses for anyone to use the
specification and the SDK and to supply products based on these.

4. DNG is based on the principle of "no unnecessary differences"
between manufacturers and models.

5. DNG files contain parameters describing camera and sensor
characteristics.

6. DNG has a version scheme that enables the DNG specification, DNG
readers, and DNG writers, to evolve at their own paces, under control.

There are several cameras and digital backs that use DNG in-camera; 3
were announced during September 2006, including the Pentax K10D. A
number of camera manufacturers supply their own DNG Converters to
convert their own formats into DNG, and a couple of them provide
software that can process DNGs for their own cameras. Some other DNG
Converters have been developed by "amateurs" to enable the raw files
from their (niche) cameras & digital backs to be processed by
mainstream raw converters.

There is a lot of information here, including more about all of the
above:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:47 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 4:07 pm, "Bill Hilton" <bhilton....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
[snip]
> It seems to me there are three advantages to DNG ...
[snip]

I believe the main advantage of DNG isn't one of those you listed. But
it IS the trigger for this thread.

DNG is a good format for holding rights management and asset management
metadata. And that is why Peter Krogh, the author of The DAM Book,
advocates it. It enables a single file to contain:

- The raw image data.

- Metadata describing the camera & sensor so that it can be processed
in future by software that hasn't got built-in details for that camera.

- Rights management metadata (name, copyright, website, etc) which will
get copied into derivatives (JPEGs, TIFFs, etc) by aware-software.

- Asset management metadata (keywords for the shoot, subject, etc),
which will also get copied.

- Previews of various sizes chosen by option, including a full-sized
JPEG preview generated using raw converter values (in particular, ACR
values) so that for many purposes further raw conversion isn't needed,
just extraction of the preview.

I don't believe today's raw files will be orphaned - there will be SOME
means of processing them in a decade or two, at SOME cost. The
advantage of DNG is that it will be supported in a decade or two with
the workflow and tools of YOUR choice, not just by SOME means.

http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/benefits.htm
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/xmp_dng.htm
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/profiles.htm

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:14 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 3:48 pm, "Protoncek \(ex.SleeperMan\)"
<protoHAHAHn....RemoveThis@bonbon.net> wrote:
[snip]
> i'd say it's kinda risky to stick with DNG...format is relatively new, not
> used very often and we don't know if it will stick. IF it will, there's
> always a way to convert later, if not and someone would have all pics in DNG
> it would be hard time to get a software who will read it, while i think it's
> not a matter when using RAW, since almost all decent photo software reads
> it.
> I think it's best to wait for a while and see what happens...

When judging DNG, it is important to judge any alternatives by the same
criteria. Otherwise there is the risk of using a bad alternative
because of some (real or imagined) imperfection in DNG.

DNG is an older format (more than 2 years old) than the specific raw
files of most cameras on sale today (mostly less than 2 years old).
Don't be fooled by "CR2" or "NEF" - we know that most raw converters
don't process images just because they are "CR2s" or "NEFs", but
because they recognise the specific camera model, hence the delays in
supporting the 400D and D80. (That delay could have been avoided if
Canon and Nikon had supported DNG, of course).

I believe more DNGs are created every day than the raw files of ANY
camera model. That isn't because many cameras and digital backs use DNG
in-camera - several do, but they tend to be niche and minority models.
It is because so many photographers convert their original raw files
into DNG. (Since June 2005, I have converted from the memory card and
discarded the originals. Observation says that many other people do
likewise. Other people backup both the original raws and the DNGs).

Across this planet are lots of people with images in DNG format who are
ALSO coders! DNG has an open specification and an SDK. There is NO
chance that DNG files will be orphaned.

In summary, the main problems (not insurmountable) are lack of support
by Canon, Nikon, Capture One, and Bibble. Capture One will support DNG
in the next release. Canon and Nikon files can be converted to DNG by
not-Canon and not-Nikon software. So ... Bibble! Eric, Eric .... Please
get your act together!

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Pete D

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Since: Sep 14, 2005
Posts: 733



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Probably not so many using it unless they have a new camera thats RAW format
is not supported by their favourite photo package. Only one camera I can
think of supports DNG directly from the camera and that is the Pentax K10D.

"JC Dill" <jcdill.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0r9hi2h15f2cj0b7jo5fmsn6a1bkreko21@4ax.com...
> Reading the DAM book (chapter 1, online), it suggests that RAW images
> be converted to DNG. Googling on DNG I find that it's a format
> created by Adobe in September 2004, over 2 years ago. This is the
> first I've heard of this format, so apparently it's not getting widely
> adopted and discussed. I'm curious if anyone here is using DNG, and
> if so why you made that choice.
>
> Thanks!
>
> jc
>
> --
>
> "The nice thing about a mare is you get to ride a lot
> of different horses without having to own that many."
> ~ Eileen Morgan of The Mare's Nest, PA
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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:42 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 6:36 pm, JC Dill <jcd....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> *If* DNG becomes widely accepted and used, then the proposed
> advantages would make it a good choice.
[snip]

I answered this elsewhere in the thread. DNG is demonstrably widely
accepted and used. See:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/products.htm
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/respectability.htm
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/dng_not_native.htm

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:50 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 5:30 pm, "Protoncek \(ex.SleeperMan\)"
<protoHAHAHn....TakeThisOut@bonbon.net> wrote:
[snip]
> what would be "the one" reason
> to convert anyway? I mean, what would a man gain by doing that ---and that
> that thing would compensate for time wasted by yet another conversion?
[snip]

Whether particular photographers can get any benefit from DNG depends
on their workflow and the tools they use. (The situation gradually
improves over time). Not everyone can get immediate benefit yet, or
enough benefit to counter any perceived disadvantages. So any
photographer who sees no current personal benefit in using DNG, and
assumes therefore that there are no benefits to any other
photographers, is wrong!

Here are the benefits that many photographers gain:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/benefits.htm

DNG is becoming the de facto standard raw file format, for those
reasons. It is up to YOU when you jump on board. It is YOUR decision to
make, because you are the one who benefits / loses. No one else will be
impacted by your decision.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Barry Pearson

External


Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:56 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 1:18 pm, "Pete D" <n... RemoveThis @email.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Only one camera I can
> think of supports DNG directly from the camera and that is the Pentax K10D.
[snip]

Hasselblad-Imacon - H2D digital SLR

Hasselblad-Imacon - Ixpress CFH digital back

Hasselblad-Imacon - Ixpress CF digital back (2 models)

Leica - Digital-Modul-R digital back

Leica - M8 Camera

Pentax - K10D camera

Ricoh - GR Digital camera

Samsung - GX-10 camera

Samsung - PRO815 camera

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:23 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 6:52 pm, "Protoncek \(ex.SleeperMan\)"
<protoHAHAHn....TakeThisOut@bonbon.net> wrote:
[snip]
> why do i get this feeling that all companies that do support dng are doing
> that as (maybe last) desperate attempt to swim out of "being forgotten" by
> buyers...?
[snip]

Because you have missed the point. It is largely irrelevant what
cameras output DNG! The vast majority of people in the world who use
DNG don't use cameras that output DNG. All key writers who advocate DNG
don't use such cameras - they typically use Canons and Nikons. (I use
Pentax).

The raw formats of between 150 and 200 cameras and digital backs can be
converted to DNG. That includes nearly all the popular cases, and large
numbers of less popular cases. In fact, no one knows the number,
because there are several DNG Converters written by "amateurs" and
others with a special interest. THAT is the nature of DNG - you don't
need to inform anyone, you just use it, and it is up to you whether you
publicise this.

What matters is what can be done with those DNGs. You can supply them
to the Library of Congress, who favour DNG over other raw formats. Or
you can process them with a raw converter, etc.

Some software supports DNG files where they don't support the original
raw files. Some people use DNG because their software of choice won't
support their camera by any other means.
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/dng_not_native.htm#examples

Some software supports DNG and original files in parallel.

Some software doesn't support DNG. The software of Canon, Nikon, Phase
One, and Bibble, are the main examples. (There are others too). Phase
One will soon support DNG. There is a decreasing list of important
software that doesn't support DNG. More than 140 (not-Adobe) products
support DNG, from more than 130 companies.

The balance changes month by month - entirely one way! Since DNG was
launched, between 5 and 6 products per month supported it for the first
time. In September 2006, the number was smaller - I learned of "just" 3
cameras!
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/products.htm

I'm sure you will jump aboard eventually - the question is "when?" I'm
sure this will be within 3 years, but I don't know how much sooner.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:34 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Oct 8, 7:13 pm, "Protoncek \(ex.SleeperMan\)"
<protoHAHAHn... DeleteThis @bonbon.net> wrote:
[snip]
> My opinion too. Adobe will make sure that all who use DNG will HAVE to
> buy at least one of their products.
[snip]

OBVIOUSLY not true! Anyone can have a full DNG-based workflow without
buying ANYTHING from Adobe. In fact, without using ANY Adobe software,
bought or not. THAT is the nature of DNG - a freely usable raw file
format that is licensed for everyone to use and that doesn't need
registration or permission from Adobe.

Many people already do this. For example, convert their Sigma/Foveon
X3F files to DNG then open then in Silkypix. And here are some other
cases where not-Adobe software can process DNG files but NOT the
original raw files:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/dng_not_native.htm#examples

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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Barry Pearson

External


Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:45 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 8, 7:04 pm, "Protoncek \(ex.SleeperMan\)"
<protoHAHAHn....RemoveThis@bonbon.net> wrote:
[snip]
> I hope you're right. I guess we'll se in a couple of years. Adobe is strong
> enough to make it happen. But, first some big companies (like Canon, Nikon)
> must except it .

Some people believe that Canon & Nikon are opposed to Adobe. They
believe that those companies would not use an Adobe specification. In
fact, both of those companies use TIFF - and TIFF is owned by Adobe,
just as DNG is. Those companies are not inherently opposed to Adobe.

There is no need whatsoever for Canon and Nikon to accept DNG! The vast
majority of the people in the world who currently use DNG don't use
cameras that output DNG - in fact, they probably mostly use Canon and
Nikon!

Here is an illustration of who uses which software:
http://www.openraw.org/2006rawsurvey/chapter3
http://www.openraw.org/files/openraw-chart-big014.jpg

[snip]
> No real benefit.
[snip]

Whether particular photographers can get any benefit from DNG depends
on their workflow and the tools they use. (The situation gradually
improves over time). Not everyone can get immediate benefit yet, or
enough benefit to counter any perceived disadvantages. So any
photographer who sees no current personal benefit in using DNG, and
assumes therefore that there are no benefits to any other
photographers, is wrong!
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/benefits.htm

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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John Bean

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Since: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 466



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:55 am
Post subject: Re: Are you converting your RAW images to DNG? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:18:56 +1000, "Pete D" <no.RemoveThis@email.com>
wrote:

>Probably not so many using it unless they have a new camera thats RAW format
>is not supported by their favourite photo package. Only one camera I can
>think of supports DNG directly from the camera and that is the Pentax K10D.

....apart from models from Ricoh, Leica, Haselblad Wink

--
John Bean
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Barry Pearson

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Since: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 121



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:59 am
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On Oct 8, 7:01 pm, JC Dill <jcd....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I'm concerned that DNG will follow a similar path. I don't relish
> the idea of needing to pay an annual ~$500 "Adobe tax" to upgrade to
> the latest and greatest Adobe software (new Photoshop every XX months)
> because I converted all my files into a format that *requires* Adobe
> software.

DNG doesn't require Adobe software. There are more than 140 not-Adobe
products from more than 130 companies that support DNG in some way:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/products.htm

There is a royalty-free license for anyone to use DNG and supply
products conforming to it:
http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/license.html

What is at least as important is that there is no such license for
Canon and Nikon raw file formats. You know you are not going to pay
anything to use DNG, but what about CR2 or NEF?

[snip]
> Someone mentioned that DNG is discussed regularly on other forums.
> Since I don't read web forums regularly (I find the UI of most web
> forums horrible to use), I haven't found those discussions, and I'm
> not having a lot of luck finding the discussion posts by searching.
> If those of you who visit those other forums could share DNG
> discussion thread URLs the next time you run across them it would be
> very helpful.

Those posts and threads happen daily, even hourly. You need to be in
those forums - no one is going to tell you every few hours that there
are more posts. Obviously you can look at the Adobe forums, as I and
many others do. We get a constant stream of up to date information of
the subject. Or look at the DPReview forums. There is LOT going on
there. Anyone not looking at those forums is perhaps out of touch with
this topic.

For those who wants to catch up, here is the most comprehensive source
available:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
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/\BratMan/\

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Since: Jul 25, 2007
Posts: 7



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:08 pm
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"JC Dill" <jcdill RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0r9hi2h15f2cj0b7jo5fmsn6a1bkreko21@4ax.com...
> Reading the DAM book (chapter 1, online), it suggests that RAW images
> be converted to DNG. Googling on DNG I find that it's a format
> created by Adobe in September 2004, over 2 years ago. This is the
> first I've heard of this format, so apparently it's not getting widely
> adopted and discussed. I'm curious if anyone here is using DNG, and
> if so why you made that choice.
>
Check it out.
http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/index.html
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