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Is Pentax trying to cheat?

 
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bmoag

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Since: Oct 26, 2005
Posts: 309



(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Is Pentax trying to cheat? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

Pomme de terres vs. naranjas.
A blind man could not tell the difference simply looking at both.
Do you understand what the camera is doing when you downsize the image to
2mp rather than 6mp?
Do you understand the effects of resampling and jpeg algorithms,
specifically the ones used by Pentax?
Do you understand the compromises that go into the design of P&S cameras
such that, as you have observed. there are not often gross improvements in
image quality once the sensor size passes a certain point?
The last point has been observed, analyzed and commented upon frequently.
However as sensor costs go down it makes marketing sense to put larger
megapixel sensors in less expensive cameras as putative selling points.

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risadler

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Since: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 7



(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:50 am
Post subject: Re: Is Pentax trying to cheat? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

I've had a look at the reviews of other "entry-level" cameras in the
6MP range, like the Olympus FE-120, and they seem to create the same
bad pictures. Possibly a combination of low quality optics and CCD
sensor is the culprit, but that doesn't really make sense.

The optics used in point-and-shoots are nothing new and has been
perfected years ago, as demonstrated by the quality of the Espio 738G,
comparing apples to pears, which has basically the same optical
capabilities as the Optio 60 and other point-and-shoot zooms (both film
and digital). And Pentax is the company that gave us the Takumars, so
they should know what they're doing... and they do!

This leaves the CCD sensor as the logical culprit. Good optics combined
with bad sensors equals bad pictures is the only equation that yields a
valid result. The question thus is why use low quality 6 megapixel
sensors when a good quality four or five megapixel sensor produces
better images? The answer is marketing. For newcomers to the digital
camera scene megapixels is everything; because that's what the
manufacturers are telling us in their advertisements.

So here's another thought: If a low-end 6MP sensor produces the same
quality images as by a middle or high-end 4MP sensor that's digitally
enlarged to 6MP "resolution" AND the 4MP sensor is cheaper... who's
going to know the difference?

Also, the way I understand this, to determine megapixels you count the
sensor pixels horizontally and vertically and multiply. If we then have
two sensor arrays, both with the same size pixels, but the one 50%
larger than the other, they will both produce images of the same
quality but with different dimensions. For example, if sensor one has a
pixel count of 1600 horizontally and 1200 vertically it will produce a
2MP image; sensor two is 50% larger, but with the same size pixels and
thus 2400 horizontally and 1800 vertically, it will produce a 4.3MP
image. Of course you can now use a larger lens to project the image
onto the sensor and get slightly better results; or inverse, use
smaller and cheaper sensors (like those found in mobile phones) to get
the desired 6MP. But the responsiveness and quality of each pixel
remains the same. From 4MP to 6MP is a 18% increase, which is optically
not much.

Well, I've learned a lot about digital cameras these past three months;
for example that new-comers are getting stiffed with poor products from
the "good name" brands. I am selling this camera for half what I bought
it for right now. It's back to film.

Just because it says 6 megapixels on the box doesn't mean there really
is 6 million actual pixels on the sensor (or that the camera uses them
all). Remember that the emporer really doesn't have any clothes on.

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Bill Funk

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Since: Aug 09, 2005
Posts: 1536



(Msg. 18) Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:12 am
Post subject: Re: Is Pentax trying to cheat? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 22 Feb 2006 02:50:45 -0800, "risadler" <rsadler DeleteThis @southerncape.co.za>
wrote:

>Just because it says 6 megapixels on the box doesn't mean there really
>is 6 million actual pixels on the sensor (or that the camera uses them
>all). Remember that the emporer really doesn't have any clothes on.

As has been pointed out, that camera really does have 6MP.

--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
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Martin Brown

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Since: Aug 09, 2005
Posts: 113



(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:51 am
Post subject: Re: Is Pentax trying to cheat? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

risadler wrote:
> Bill,
>
> 1. The camera is set to 2M, because I found that the images are of
> better quality than at 6M; that's why the camera is set to that
> resolution. The problem is not that I am "only getting 2MP" from the
> camera, but rather that the 6MP images look like 2MP images digitally
> enlarged to 6MP. Please take a look at the samples provided.

What samples?

I cannot see any reason why Pentax would cheat on pixel count. It is
more likely that you are a victim of the belief that more pixels is
always better. But it isn't if the lens is not up to the job...

If you are seeing no difference between the downsampled image and ful
resolution it is most likely because the lens is not really sharp enough
at full aperture. Try a high contrast target like newspaper with plenty
of detail in bright sunlight as a test.

> 2. The dpreview link is just a press release, not an actual review with
> opinions and sample photos. Nobody seems to want to review this camera.

> 3. The screen vs. print thing: I take one photo at 6M; then I take a
> second photo (same subject, same settings) at 2M; then I take the 2M
> image and enlarge it to the same dimensions as the 6M in Paint Shop Pro
> (using Shift+S); I then view both these images at 100% zoom
> side-by-side and compare. I still don't get it, right?

Using PSPro you can do arithmetic difference and see quite literally
what the differences are between 2 image files.

BTW You need an image with pixels at 200% to clearly see individual
pixel differnces on a consumer grade monitor.

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Isaiah Beard

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Since: Jul 23, 2006
Posts: 48



(Msg. 20) Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Is Pentax trying to cheat? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

risadler wrote:

> Conclusion: the Optio 60 is resizing (enlarging) a 1600x1200 image to
> 2848x2136 and thus is not really a 6MP camera, but rather 2 or 3MP
> masquerading as something better.
>
> Par for the course, Pentax?

What do you expect from a company that has stooped so low as to call
themselves "The Official Digital Camera of the Internet[tm]" when it's
quite clear that there's no standards body in existence to actually
bestow that title?


--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.
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