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Next: Sony A100 to A700
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Since: Nov 05, 2007
Posts: 236
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:34 am
Post subject: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)
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External
Since: Feb 05, 2006
Posts: 166
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:34 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <MPG.22bda0eb5b04276998bcba.TakeThisOut@news.supernews.com>,
Alfred Molon <alfred_molon.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1213308645.html
>
This is the key sentence:
"The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise ratio
of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing Sony
CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size."
This is good news for cell phones and cheap cameras but, if ever
applied, won't have such an impressive impact on large sensors.
--
I will not see your reply if you use Google. |
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External
Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 364
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alfred Molon wrote:
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1213308645.html
>
> For the moment only small sensors, but it should not be a problem to
> also make larger sensors. For your information, back-illuminated sensors
> are about three times as sensitive as standard front-illuminated
> sensors.
>
> I'd guess we can expect a new crop DSLRs with a base ISO of 600 and
> extending comfortably up to ISO 5000 or 10000 (i.e. 1600 x 3 and 3200 x
> 3).
I'd expect that it's probably currently intended for very small sensors
with very high pixel density - efficiency gains would probably be much
less as photosite size increases.
They mention a 1.7um square pixel size. At 6mp, that extrapolates to a
sensor about 40 x 26mm, a "1/3.6" perhaps.
For comparison, current dslrs have sensels roughly in the range of 25-70
um square, so it might be premature to assume that efficiency gains to
the extent you suggest may be possible. >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 3968
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:01:21 +1200, frederick wrote:
> They mention a 1.7um square pixel size. At 6mp, that extrapolates to a
> sensor about 40 x 26mm, a "1/3.6" perhaps.
Typo? A 1/3.6" sensor's dimensions are about 3mm x 4mm. Your
40mm x 26mm sensor would be slightly larger than Full Frame (FX). >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Nov 05, 2007
Posts: 236
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 400
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Alfred Molon wrote:
> In article <1213444424.544337@ftpsrv1>, frederick says...
>
>> I'd expect that it's probably currently intended for very small sensors
>> with very high pixel density - efficiency gains would probably be much
>> less as photosite size increases.
>
> Why would you think so, or do you have any data about spectral
> efficiencies of DSLR sensors?
From the diagrams, it looks like they are combating components getting
in the way on very tightly packed pixels. That's just my non-expert
guess, maybe way off.
--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com
all google groups messages filtered due to spam >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 364
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:31 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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ASAAR wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:01:21 +1200, frederick wrote:
>
>> They mention a 1.7um square pixel size. At 6mp, that extrapolates to a
>> sensor about 40 x 26mm, a "1/3.6" perhaps.
>
> Typo? A 1/3.6" sensor's dimensions are about 3mm x 4mm. Your
> 40mm x 26mm sensor would be slightly larger than Full Frame (FX).
>
Yes - please call it a typo. It sounds better than dumb error ;-0. >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 400
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:31 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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frederick wrote:
> ASAAR wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:01:21 +1200, frederick wrote:
>>
>>> They mention a 1.7um square pixel size. At 6mp, that extrapolates to
>>> a sensor about 40 x 26mm, a "1/3.6" perhaps.
>>
>> Typo? A 1/3.6" sensor's dimensions are about 3mm x 4mm. Your
>> 40mm x 26mm sensor would be slightly larger than Full Frame (FX).
>>
> Yes - please call it a typo. It sounds better than dumb error ;-0.
It is 5mp, not 6mp so 2592 x 1944 * 1.7 =
4.4 x 3.3
Unsure of working with microns, I checked:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter/
"small sensor, 2.3 micron pixel pitch, Canon S70 point and shoot
consumer camera is compared to that from a large sensor, 8.2 micron
pixel pitch, Canon 1D Mark II DSLR"
So 1.7 microns is a very small pixel.
--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com
all google groups messages filtered due to spam >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 160
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:14 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <MPG.22bda0eb5b04276998bcba DeleteThis @news.supernews.com>,
> Alfred Molon <alfred_molon DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1213308645.html
>>
>
> This is the key sentence:
> "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise
> ratio of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing
> Sony CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size."
>
> This is good news for cell phones and cheap cameras but, if ever
> applied, won't have such an impressive impact on large sensors.
Why do you say that? Isn't the quantum efficiency improvement in going
from front- to back-illumination enough to produce a substantial
sensitivity gain?
David >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 380
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:40 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David J Taylor <david-taylor.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.neither-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:
>Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>> In article <MPG.22bda0eb5b04276998bcba.TakeThisOut@news.supernews.com>,
>> Alfred Molon <alfred_molon.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1213308645.html
>>>
>>
>> This is the key sentence:
>> "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise
>> ratio of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing
>> Sony CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size."
>>
>> This is good news for cell phones and cheap cameras but, if ever
>> applied, won't have such an impressive impact on large sensors.
>
>Why do you say that? Isn't the quantum efficiency improvement in going
>from front- to back-illumination enough to produce a substantial
>sensitivity gain?
Why would it be?
No, I don't take their marketing BS as fact.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer.TakeThisOut@sonic.net >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 160
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:15 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ray Fischer wrote:
> David J Taylor
[]
>> Why do you say that? Isn't the quantum efficiency improvement in
>> going from front- to back-illumination enough to produce a
>> substantial sensitivity gain?
>
> Why would it be?
>
> No, I don't take their marketing BS as fact.
As I understand it, the QE difference is a factor of two or three.
David >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 364
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Paul Furman wrote:
> frederick wrote:
>> ASAAR wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:01:21 +1200, frederick wrote:
>>>
>>>> They mention a 1.7um square pixel size. At 6mp, that extrapolates
>>>> to a sensor about 40 x 26mm, a "1/3.6" perhaps.
>>>
>>> Typo? A 1/3.6" sensor's dimensions are about 3mm x 4mm. Your
>>> 40mm x 26mm sensor would be slightly larger than Full Frame (FX).
>>>
>> Yes - please call it a typo. It sounds better than dumb error ;-0.
>
> It is 5mp, not 6mp so 2592 x 1944 * 1.7 =
> 4.4 x 3.3
>
> Unsure of working with microns, I checked:
> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter/
> "small sensor, 2.3 micron pixel pitch, Canon S70 point and shoot
> consumer camera is compared to that from a large sensor, 8.2 micron
> pixel pitch, Canon 1D Mark II DSLR"
>
> So 1.7 microns is a very small pixel.
>
I took 1.7um square as meaning 1.7 square um.
Reason for that is that press releases are written by people in
marketing departments. >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 400
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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frederick wrote:
> Paul Furman wrote:
>> frederick wrote:
>>> ASAAR wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:01:21 +1200, frederick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> They mention a 1.7um square pixel size. At 6mp, that extrapolates
>>>>> to a sensor about 40 x 26mm, a "1/3.6" perhaps.
>>>>
>>>> Typo? A 1/3.6" sensor's dimensions are about 3mm x 4mm. Your
>>>> 40mm x 26mm sensor would be slightly larger than Full Frame (FX).
>>>>
>>> Yes - please call it a typo. It sounds better than dumb error ;-0.
>>
>> It is 5mp, not 6mp so 2592 x 1944 * 1.7 =
>> 4.4 x 3.3
>>
>> Unsure of working with microns, I checked:
>> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter/
>> "small sensor, 2.3 micron pixel pitch, Canon S70 point and shoot
>> consumer camera is compared to that from a large sensor, 8.2 micron
>> pixel pitch, Canon 1D Mark II DSLR"
>>
>> So 1.7 microns is a very small pixel.
>>
> I took 1.7um square as meaning 1.7 square um.
Ah! but still...
The square root of 1.7 is an even smaller 1.3 so a 3.4mm x 2.5mm sensor.
> Reason for that is that press releases are written by people in
> marketing departments.
Or targeted to commercial cell phone designers.
--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com
all google groups messages filtered due to spam >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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External
Since: Feb 05, 2006
Posts: 166
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <yy15k.9606$E41.6426@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
"David J Taylor"
<david-taylor.RemoveThis@blueyonder.neither-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:
> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> > In article <MPG.22bda0eb5b04276998bcba.RemoveThis@news.supernews.com>,
> > Alfred Molon <alfred_molon.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1213308645.html
> >>
> >
> > This is the key sentence:
> > "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise
> > ratio of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing
> > Sony CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size."
> >
> > This is good news for cell phones and cheap cameras but, if ever
> > applied, won't have such an impressive impact on large sensors.
>
> Why do you say that? Isn't the quantum efficiency improvement in going
> from front- to back-illumination enough to produce a substantial
> sensitivity gain?
>
> David
The wires block proportionately less light as the sensors get larger.
The meaning of this improvement has to take into account how terrible
Sony's small sensors are.
--
I will not see your reply if you use Google. >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 364
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Paul Furman wrote:
> frederick wrote:
>> Paul Furman wrote:
>>> frederick wrote:
>>>> ASAAR wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:01:21 +1200, frederick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> They mention a 1.7um square pixel size. At 6mp, that extrapolates
>>>>>> to a sensor about 40 x 26mm, a "1/3.6" perhaps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Typo? A 1/3.6" sensor's dimensions are about 3mm x 4mm. Your
>>>>> 40mm x 26mm sensor would be slightly larger than Full Frame (FX).
>>>>>
>>>> Yes - please call it a typo. It sounds better than dumb error ;-0.
>>>
>>> It is 5mp, not 6mp so 2592 x 1944 * 1.7 =
>>> 4.4 x 3.3
>>>
>>> Unsure of working with microns, I checked:
>>> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter/
>>> "small sensor, 2.3 micron pixel pitch, Canon S70 point and shoot
>>> consumer camera is compared to that from a large sensor, 8.2 micron
>>> pixel pitch, Canon 1D Mark II DSLR"
>>>
>>> So 1.7 microns is a very small pixel.
>>>
>> I took 1.7um square as meaning 1.7 square um.
>
> Ah! but still...
> The square root of 1.7 is an even smaller 1.3 so a 3.4mm x 2.5mm sensor.
>
Yeah - somehow I was thinking 6mp, I wrote 6mp above, but the article
does indeed say 5mp.
>
>> Reason for that is that press releases are written by people in
>> marketing departments.
>
> Or targeted to commercial cell phone designers.
>
Even a sensor that size would be huge for a cellphone camera wouldn't it? >> Stay informed about: Sony mass-produces back-illuminated image sensors |
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