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Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S

 
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sheepdog 2007

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Since: Sep 14, 2007
Posts: 23



(Msg. 46) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:02 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

On 2007-10-05 04:28:23 -0700, floyd.RemoveThis@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) said:

>
> Pick what works for *you* and stop worrying about what
> works for anyone else.

This is good advice for the real world, but of limited value in the
virtual one. Why? Because if this were a social gathering IRL,
antisocial behavior would be tolerated only briefly, or not at all.

For some folks the typed equivalent of verbal assault is the reason for
going online. Trying to reason with them is a well-intentioned path to
frustration.

I had a friend who was congenial enough face-to-face but his written
remarks always seemed deliberately rude. We had such different views
it's a wonder we got along, but we did. In matters photographic, He was
so sold on Leica lenses and rangefinder cameras, he wouldn't even try
my SLRs (I was using a Nikon F and a Bronica S, with Nikon glass all
the way through to my enlarging lens). IMHO there wasn't a nickel's
worth of difference between our prints that could be attributed to
equipment. One week I'd have one or two shots that captured some peak
of action, or evoked a strong emotion, and the next week it would be
Ray who "nailed it." The fact that Ray had five times as much capital
investment for just about the same amount of gear made no difference.

The point is, we could go out for beers and discuss or divergent POV on
women, politics, religion, photography or even (*gasp*) gardening and
even if the talk got heated there was no real rancor. To this day if I
make it to his corner of the country the status quo is the same.

In email it's a different story; there have been several
misunderstandings which required one or both of us to apologize. We
were in a politics newsgroup about ten years ago and couldn't stand
each other online. I wouldn't say he's a troll, but he loves to get
people "wound up," and winning an argument is like beating an opponent
on the tennis court, in his mind.

Ray just got a digital rangefinder--a Leica M8--and paid over five
grand for just a body. The lens he wants is several thousand more. I
have two D80 bodies and six lenses, for a total investment of less than
his 35mm film body and the new M8, w/o lenses.

We still disagree on the best way to prune an apple tree.
--
Cease then to grieve for your private afflictions, and address
yourselves instead to the safety of the republic

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David J Taylor

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Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 604



(Msg. 47) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:31 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

SMS wrote:
[]
> In any case, I'd be very careful about using anything Ken Rockwell
> says to support a position I agree with. I generally view his
> statements like I view many political endorsements...if so and so
> endorses a candidate, I must be against that candidate. Remember Sigma
> digital
> SLRs? They had a fan base as strange and misinformed as the current
> group of anti-digital SLR trolls. I have a whole list of people
> similar to Ken Rockwell, who's statements on any subject now are
> suspect.

I know what you mean - we had a classical music critic, and if he said he
enjoyed a concert, I know that I wouldn't have liked it! However, I do
find it interesting that some people do not allow a reviewer or other
expert to change their opinion in the light of experience. They can't
seem accept that someone gives their best opinion at the time, but might
revise that opinion later on. I find the ability to change opinion (and
give reasons why) a good trait showing honesty.

As far as possible, I try to form my own opinions from my own tests, but I
recognise that there are areas of expertise I don't have, and therefore
need to rely on others. Anyone reading the statements of the anti-DSLR
people will have no problems in forming their own judgements as to their
reliability.

Cheers,
David

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ASAAR

External


Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 3968



(Msg. 48) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:31 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 07:31:53 GMT, David J Taylor wrote:

> Anyone reading the statements of the anti-DSLR people will have no
> problems in forming their own judgements as to their reliability.

People? Too many puppets, not enough hands. Smile
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SMS

External


Since: Sep 08, 2005
Posts: 953



(Msg. 49) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:31 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

David J Taylor wrote:
> SMS wrote:
> []
>> In any case, I'd be very careful about using anything Ken Rockwell
>> says to support a position I agree with. I generally view his
>> statements like I view many political endorsements...if so and so
>> endorses a candidate, I must be against that candidate. Remember Sigma
>> digital
>> SLRs? They had a fan base as strange and misinformed as the current
>> group of anti-digital SLR trolls. I have a whole list of people
>> similar to Ken Rockwell, who's statements on any subject now are
>> suspect.
>
> I know what you mean - we had a classical music critic, and if he said he
> enjoyed a concert, I know that I wouldn't have liked it! However, I do
> find it interesting that some people do not allow a reviewer or other
> expert to change their opinion in the light of experience.

Ken is obnoxious, at least in his writings, so he is cut very little
slack. I remember when he posted that absolutely there was not going to
be a D70s model as an upgrade to the D70, days before the D70s appeared.
Not a big deal, but he tries to make himself out as an authority on
Nikon's product releases, when he's not. Of course everyone remembers
how he insisted that there was no need for full frame, and that Nikon
would never come out with a full frame digital camera (it was sour
grapes over Canon's lead at the high end). There is no need for Nikon
shills or Canon shills, they are just companies that no one should fall
in love with.

I also find his dishonesty in his affiliate links to be unethical. He
should disclose that those links help him receive commissions. I
actually think people are _more_ likely to use affiliate links when you
are honest that they are supporting you by clicking through. I just
spent $225 in Amazon affiliate commissions today, and I don't think I
would have gotten half that if I tried to hide the facts about what the
links do.

As an aside, one of the items I bought with the Amazon commissions was a
P&S camera, in fact it is _an AA Powered Camera_, the A570 IS. Someone
in my family needed a relatively low priced, IS camera with an optical
viewfinder, that could take decent video, and I wanted a DIGIC III
model. The AA batteries are a drawback, but it'll be okay. I should
really thank ASAAR for his help in driving so many people to my web
sites where they clicked through.
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ASAAR

External


Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 3968



(Msg. 50) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:31 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 05:19:31 -0700, SMS wrote:

> Ken is obnoxious, at least in his writings, so he is cut very little
> slack.

Which is why you are cut so little slack here. Want to guess why?


> I also find his dishonesty in his affiliate links to be unethical. He
> should disclose that those links help him receive commissions. I
> actually think people are _more_ likely to use affiliate links when you
> are honest that they are supporting you by clicking through. I just
> spent $225 in Amazon affiliate commissions today, and I don't think I
> would have gotten half that if I tried to hide the facts about what the
> links do.
>
> As an aside, one of the items I bought with the Amazon commissions was a
> P&S camera, in fact it is _an AA Powered Camera_, the A570 IS. Someone
> in my family needed a relatively low priced, IS camera with an optical
> viewfinder, that could take decent video, and I wanted a DIGIC III
> model. The AA batteries are a drawback, but it'll be okay. I should
> really thank ASAAR for his help in driving so many people to my web
> sites where they clicked through.

It's interesting that (aside from the many sock puppets), the most
notoriously dishonest poster in the newsgroup complains about the
supposed dishonesty of others. Actually, anyone that doesn't know
by now that click-through ads provide revenue is either hopelessly
internet-illiterate or is a very young internet newbie that will
soon learn. But we can probably guess the real reason for your
diatribe, and your silly claim that my exposure of your lies is
providing you extra revenue is just as bogus as many of your
statements and opinions. Gee, I don't feel intimidated at all, so I
guess I'll just keep on letting people know about your own lies and
ethical lapses whenever you cross the line.
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Bill Tuthill

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Since: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 291



(Msg. 51) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:34 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>equipment>35mm, others (more info?)

In rec.photo.digital Walter Hancock <spamstop.TakeThisOut@unknown.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> www.doughicksphotography.com/comparison.htm.
>
> The Sony applied more compression yet provided twice the detail.
> It's not 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. It's more like 1 of 144,
> and 99.3% of a gross. Maybe you need a new monitor, or glasses.
> That's the only possible explanation for your reply.

I dismissed some of the items you mentioned as DOF differences.
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Paul Furman

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Since: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 400



(Msg. 52) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:34 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Bill Tuthill wrote:

> In rec.photo.digital Walter Hancock <spamstop.TakeThisOut@unknown.com> wrote:
>
>>>>www.doughicksphotography.com/comparison.htm.
>>
>>The Sony applied more compression yet provided twice the detail.
>>It's not 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. It's more like 1 of 144,
>>and 99.3% of a gross. Maybe you need a new monitor, or glasses.
>>That's the only possible explanation for your reply.
>
> I dismissed some of the items you mentioned as DOF differences.

The Sony appears sharper due to digital sharpening. You have to really
blow it up to see. Try sharpening them both some more to emphasize and
it's obvious.
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David J. Littleboy

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Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 1149



(Msg. 53) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:49 am
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"Pete Stavrakoglou" <ntotrr RemoveThis @optonline.net> wrote:
>
> Although I agree 100% with your point about P&SO vs. DSLR, depending on
> Rockwell for honesty and objectivity is like seeking Bill Clinton for
> advice on staying faithful to your wife.

Better Clinton than Gingrich (divorced his wife while she was hospitalized
for cancer*) or Giuliani (what's he on: his fourth or is it his fifth
wife**)?

*: http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/99_columns/081799.htm

**: Oops, only three:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani#Personal_life

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
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David J. Littleboy

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Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 1149



(Msg. 54) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Annika1980" <annika1980.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 4, 6:50 pm, "David Ruether" <r....RemoveThis@no-junk.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I should have this up in an hour or so, but I will put up comparison
>> photos atwww.doughicksphotography.com/comparison.htm.
>> of a D1x with an 18-70mm at 18mm and f4 and a Sony 707 at
>> 10mm and f4.5 (about the same angle of view).
>
> Oh boy, dueling Mavicas!

Shooting the F707 stopped down more than two stops vs. the Nikon at 1/3 stop
from wide open tells you that the photographer was trying to make the Nikon
look bad. Shooting the Sony at f/5.6 and the Nikon at f/11 would be a more
interesting test.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
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wallace_thornton

External


Since: Oct 05, 2007
Posts: 1



(Msg. 55) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:43:47 +0900, "David J. Littleboy" <davidjl.RemoveThis@gol.com> wrote:

>
>"Annika1980" <annika1980.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 4, 6:50 pm, "David Ruether" <r....RemoveThis@no-junk.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I should have this up in an hour or so, but I will put up comparison
>>> photos atwww.doughicksphotography.com/comparison.htm.
>>> of a D1x with an 18-70mm at 18mm and f4 and a Sony 707 at
>>> 10mm and f4.5 (about the same angle of view).
>>
>> Oh boy, dueling Mavicas!
>
>Shooting the F707 stopped down more than two stops vs. the Nikon at 1/3 stop
>from wide open tells you that the photographer was trying to make the Nikon
>look bad. Shooting the Sony at f/5.6 and the Nikon at f/11 would be a more
>interesting test.
>
>David J. Littleboy
>Tokyo, Japan
>

Even if the dSLR could get nearer to the image quality of the P&S camera, don't
you think that it's a bit silly to even consider wanting one when the dSLR costs
$5000+ more than the P&S's price? That gap has widened even more today if you
want to get a dSLR that can compete with most P&S cameras.

Think about it.

Whoosh, right over their heads. They refuse to believe that many many many P&S
cameras can beat the performance of dSLRs even if the obvious results were
tattooed to their retinas. The P&S beating the dSLR has been going on a long
time now, even from 6 years ago too as evidenced by these two photos.

They've been stuck in and hypnotized by their "dSLRs are BETTER!" mantra for so
long that all sense of reality has left them. Literally. Proof of that happening
is right here in this thread.
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Bob Williams

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Since: Aug 01, 2005
Posts: 189



(Msg. 56) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "Annika1980" <annika1980 RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 4, 6:50 pm, "David Ruether" <r... RemoveThis @no-junk.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>> I should have this up in an hour or so, but I will put up comparison
>>> photos atwww.doughicksphotography.com/comparison.htm.
>>> of a D1x with an 18-70mm at 18mm and f4 and a Sony 707 at
>>> 10mm and f4.5 (about the same angle of view).
>> Oh boy, dueling Mavicas!
>
> Shooting the F707 stopped down more than two stops vs. the Nikon at 1/3 stop
> from wide open tells you that the photographer was trying to make the Nikon
> look bad. Shooting the Sony at f/5.6 and the Nikon at f/11 would be a more
> interesting test.
>
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
>
>
It may be more interesting but it wouldn't be as objective.
It is not Sony's fault that the Nikon lens isn't as fast as the Sony.
If you have to start biasing the shooting conditions to favor one camera
or the other you have ruined the objectivity of the experiment.
Each camera should be tested under as close to the same conditions as
possible under bright lighting where each camera can "show its stuff".
Bob Williams
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Paul Furman

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Since: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 400



(Msg. 57) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:43 am
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wallace_thornton wrote:
> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>>Annika1980 wrote:
>>>David Ruether wrote:
>>>
>>>>I should have this up in an hour or so, but I will put up comparison
>>>>photos atwww.doughicksphotography.com/comparison.htm.
>>>>of a D1x with an 18-70mm at 18mm and f4 and a Sony 707 at
>>>>10mm and f4.5 (about the same angle of view).
>>>
>>>Oh boy, dueling Mavicas!
>>
>>Shooting the F707 stopped down more than two stops vs. the Nikon at 1/3 stop
>>from wide open tells you that the photographer was trying to make the Nikon
>>look bad. Shooting the Sony at f/5.6 and the Nikon at f/11 would be a more
>>interesting test.
>
> Even if the dSLR could get nearer to the image quality of the P&S camera, don't
> you think that it's a bit silly to even consider wanting one when the dSLR costs
> $5000+ more than the P&S's price? That gap has widened even more today if you
> want to get a dSLR that can compete with most P&S cameras.
>
> Think about it.
>
> Whoosh, right over their heads. They refuse to believe that many many many P&S
> cameras can beat the performance of dSLRs even if the obvious results were
> tattooed to their retinas. The P&S beating the dSLR has been going on a long
> time now, even from 6 years ago too as evidenced by these two photos.
>
> They've been stuck in and hypnotized by their "dSLRs are BETTER!" mantra for so
> long that all sense of reality has left them. Literally. Proof of that happening
> is right here in this thread.

David wouldn't intentionally decieve.

Both from the ancient age of 2001 Smile

$1,000 P&S Sony DSC-F707 2001 4.9MP CCD ISO 100-400 a big P&S comparable
in size to today's entry level DSLRs.

$6,300 incl kit lens DSLR Nikon D1x 5.3MP double horizontal resolution
CCD ISO 125-800 (3200 boost) a huge industrial pro body with every
imaginable feature which is certainly part of the price, not that that
excuses the higher price but explains part of it.

The DSLR must have been enlarged (1.5x? or is that due to the odd
sensor?) then cropped the ends off from 4028x1324 to 3008x1960 and the
P&S is at the original 2560x1920.

I took a look at them with some heavy equal sharpening for easier
comparison, 0.5 pixel at max amount 489% sharpening to both which shows
the P&S is already sharpened, I suspect at a few different levels given
the halos. This accounts for the vast majority of the apparently sharper
P&S (as usual).

The yellow stripes are indeed missing detail for the DSLR but that's
about the only failing. The apparent leaf detail is all due to
sharpening, noise reduction and contrast boost. The P&S has more coarse
detail, a lot less shadow detail and chromatic aberration causing
colored halos around bright areas center to edge, like for example the
orange halos above the cars. There are sharpening halos on the power
lines too. And shadow detail is completely smeared from noise reduction
in places like the shadows of the foreground shrubs and where the right
car's tire meets the black trim. This doesn't matter much for bright
even lighting but if you want to capture shadow detail and high contrast
scenes in larger prints it *does* matter, and if you try pushing things
in post-processing, it shows.

The benefits of that much more cost are not proportional. For small
prints not needing adjustments, the P&S is a much better value but for
large prints and challenging conditions the DSLR is clearly a better
performer.

--
Paul Furman Photography
http://edgehill.net
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com
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Fred

External


Since: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 19



(Msg. 58) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

<allr1.DeleteThis@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24220-47054B5E-698@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net...
>
> understanding.engine.DeleteThis@gmail.com (~~NoMad~~) wrote:
>
> " I recently bought a new Canon SX100is which is definitely at the
> leading edge of P&S technology. Its speed, sensitivity, and resolution
> are not comparable to some DSLRs or an 8x10 view camera. But, when it
> comes to Bang for the Buck and Ergonomics there is no comparison, it is
> the State-of-the-Art in photographic technology. "
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Bang for the Buck and Ergonomics don't
> have much meaning to the DSLR crowd.
>
>
What the DSLR crowd don't and will NEVER, EVER get, is that not everyone
wants their shoulder weighed down lugging a big bag full of camera gear
around. YES WE ALL KNOW that DSLRs produce better pictures, NOBODY is
disputing that. There are however, believe it or not, people who simply want
good quality pictures (not the ULTIMATE quality), and are quite happy to
make that slight sacrifice for the sake of owning a camera that will slip
unobtrusively in a coat or trouser pocket.

Try telling that to the DSLR owners of today and they won't believe you!
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David J Taylor

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Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 604



(Msg. 59) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Fred wrote:
[]
> What the DSLR crowd don't and will NEVER, EVER get, is that not
> everyone wants their shoulder weighed down lugging a big bag full of
> camera gear around. YES WE ALL KNOW that DSLRs produce better
> pictures, NOBODY is disputing that. There are however, believe it or
> not, people who simply want good quality pictures (not the ULTIMATE
> quality), and are quite happy to make that slight sacrifice for the
> sake of owning a camera that will slip unobtrusively in a coat or
> trouser pocket.
> Try telling that to the DSLR owners of today and they won't believe
> you!

I think you will find that many DSLR owners also possess one or more
compact cameras, for just such occasions as you mention.

David
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ASAAR

External


Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 3968



(Msg. 60) Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Rockwell on DSLR vs. P&S [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:49:53 +0100, Fred wrote:

>> Bang for the Buck and Ergonomics don't
>> have much meaning to the DSLR crowd.
>
> What the DSLR crowd don't and will NEVER, EVER get, is that
> not everyone wants their shoulder weighed down lugging a big bag
> full of camera gear around. YES WE ALL KNOW that DSLRs
> produce better pictures, NOBODY is disputing that.

What you don't get, at least yet, it that not only do most DSLR
owners *not* feel that way (I, for one, own many more P&S cameras
than DSLRs), but saying "NOBODY is disputing that." shows that
you've missed the hundreds of recent posts from the numerous sock
puppets that state that DSLRs produce inferior pictures. Are you
blind or are you new?


> There are however, believe it or not, people who simply want
> good quality pictures (not the ULTIMATE quality), and are
> quite happy to make that slight sacrifice for the sake of owning
> a camera that will slip unobtrusively in a coat or trouser pocket.

Quite true, but it is NOT limited to people that want only that
kind of camera. Many DSLR owners also own small cameras that can
take very good pictures, for the same reasons you state, and excess
weight is a consideration for many, if not most DSLR owners.
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