Reformatting the XD picture card

Jürgen Exner wrote:

baily <none.RemoveThis@000.com> wrote: >how would you use your computer to format the card, By plugging the card into the card reader which is attached to the computer and issuing whatever command the operating system uses to format the drive with whatever file system the camera uses. >and why would you >do it when all the manuals say format the card on your camera for best >quality" Why not? A file system is a file system and the card couldn't care less about who created it. Of course you need to know which file system the camera expects and how to use the tools of your operating system to create just such a file system. For some people this seems to be an unsurmountable problem. In any case, it _IS_ more complex than using the format command in your camera which is one good reason to use the camera. There are also claims that a file system created by the camera might be different than the same file system created by a computer program. If that is the case then one of those two is broken and creates a non-conforming file system. Unfortunately if your camera is the one that creates a broken file system and expects a broken file system then there is just about nothing you can do but to use the broken formatter in the camera. BTW: "better quality" is utter nonsense. The camera doesn't take better photos because of the file system on the memory card. Either the camera recognizes the FS and can work with it or it doesn't. jue

good information, and well explained i have just copied that out , thanks for your help Jürgen Exner
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card 

Jürgen Exner wrote:
[]
> There are also claims that a file system created by the camera might
> be different than the same file system created by a computer program.
> If that is the case then one of those two is broken and creates a
> non-conforming file system. Unfortunately if your camera is the one
> that creates a broken file system and expects a broken file system
> then there is just about nothing you can do but to use the broken
> formatter in the camera.
[]
> jue

Hardly "broken" if the computer chooses NTFS and the camera requires FAT.
Or FAT16 and FAT32. User error.

But as you said, it's easier in the camera in any case, so just do it that
way to avoid problems.

Cheers,
David
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card 

Quote:

By plugging the card into the card reader which is attached to the computer and issuing whatever command the operating system uses to format the drive with whatever file system the camera uses.

just been looking at the camera manual
which says "design rule for camera file system compilant DPOF compatible

When the card is in the card reader, and you click on the drive >properties
it will tell you that it is a FAT file system

But the computer file system is a NTFS which i thought the card would be
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card 

baily <none.RemoveThis@000.com> wrote:
>>By plugging the card into the card reader which is attached to the
>>computer and issuing whatever command the operating system uses to
>>format the drive with whatever file system the camera uses.
>
>just been looking at the camera manual
>which says "design rule for camera file system compilant DPOF
>compatible

No idea what that is, never heard that term before.

>When the card is in the card reader, and you click on the drive
>>properties
>it will tell you that it is a FAT file system

Yep, that is very typical. It may be possible, but I doubt that there is
any camera using something else.

However the devil is in the details: _which _ FAT are we talking about?
FAT32 can deal with large partitions and therefore is used by cameras
designed to handle large memory cards.
FAT16 is simpler and was commonplace when there were no memory cards
over 2GB.

>But the computer file system is a NTFS which i thought the card would
>be

All formatters I know of allow you to specify which file system to
create. None supports all possible file systems (there must be
hundreds), but all I know of support FAT as the smallest common
denominator.

jue
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:26:19 -0800, Jürgen Exner
<jurgenex RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>baily <none RemoveThis @000.com> wrote:
>>how would you use your computer to format the card,
>
>By plugging the card into the card reader which is attached to the
>computer and issuing whatever command the operating system uses to
>format the drive with whatever file system the camera uses.
>
>>and why would you
>>do it when all the manuals say format the card on your camera for best
>>quality"
>
>Why not? A file system is a file system and the card couldn't care less
>about who created it. Of course you need to know which file system the
>camera expects and how to use the tools of your operating system to
>create just such a file system. For some people this seems to be an
>unsurmountable problem. In any case, it _IS_ more complex than using the
>format command in your camera which is one good reason to use the
>camera.
>
>There are also claims that a file system created by the camera might be
>different than the same file system created by a computer program. If
>that is the case then one of those two is broken and creates a
>non-conforming file system. Unfortunately if your camera is the one that
>creates a broken file system and expects a broken file system then there
>is just about nothing you can do but to use the broken formatter in the
>camera.
>
>BTW: "better quality" is utter nonsense. The camera doesn't take better
>photos because of the file system on the memory card. Either the camera
>recognizes the FS and can work with it or it doesn't.

'Why not?' you ask.

Here is what my computer's 'Help' says about the instruction 'Format'.

Begin quote
=======================================
Formats a disk for use with Windows XP.

FORMAT volume [/FS:file-system] [/V:label] [/Q] [/A:size] [/C] [/X]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/F:size]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/T:tracks /N:sectors]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q]
FORMAT volume [/Q]

volume Specifies the drive letter (followed by a colon),
mount point, or volume name.
/FS:filesystem Specifies the type of the file system (FAT, FAT32,
or NTFS).
/V:label Specifies the volume label.
/Q Performs a quick format.
/C NTFS only: Files created on the new volume will be
compressed by default.
/X Forces the volume to dismount first if necessary.
All opened handles to the volume would no longer be
valid.
/A:size Overrides the default allocation unit size. Default
settings are strongly recommended for general
use.
NTFS supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K,
64K.
FAT supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K,
64K, (128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).
FAT32 supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K,
32K, 64K,
(128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).

Note that the FAT and FAT32 files systems impose the
following restrictions on the number of clusters on
a volume:

FAT: Number of clusters <= 65526
FAT32: 65526 < Number of clusters < 4177918

Format will immediately stop processing if it
decides that the above requirements cannot be met
using the specified cluster size.

NTFS compression is not supported for allocation
unit sizes above 4096.

/F:size Specifies the size of the floppy disk to format
(1.44)
/T:tracks Specifies the number of tracks per disk side.
/N:sectors Specifies the number of sectors per track.
=============================================
End quote

That lot is for XP. W2000 will be different and so too will be Vista.
Then there is Apple and Linux. Obviously not all of these options will
apply to a memory card for a camera but if the proper operation of
your camera depends on a particular setting and you don't give it to
it, then you can expect trouble. Formatting using your camera will
ensure that everything is done correctly.



Eric Stevens
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card 

Eric Stevens <eric.stevens.RemoveThis@sum.co.nz> wrote:
><jurgenex.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>baily <none.RemoveThis@000.com> wrote:
>>>how would you use your computer to format the card,
>>>and why would you
>
>'Why not?' you ask.
[long list of XP format options snipped]

>Here is what my computer's 'Help' says about the instruction 'Format'.
>That lot is for XP. W2000 will be different and so too will be Vista.
>Then there is Apple and Linux. Obviously not all of these options will
>apply to a memory card for a camera but if the proper operation of
>your camera depends on a particular setting and you don't give it to
>it, then you can expect trouble.

Absolutely. That's why I wrote
"Of course you need to know which file system the
camera expects and how to use the tools of your operating system to
create just such a file system. For some people this seems to be an
unsurmountable problem."

>Formatting using your camera will
>ensure that everything is done correctly.

And that's why I said
"In any case, it _IS_ more complex than using the
format command in your camera which is one good reason to use the
camera."

jue
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:18:16 -0800, Jürgen Exner
<jurgenex.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Eric Stevens <eric.stevens.RemoveThis@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>><jurgenex.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>baily <none.RemoveThis@000.com> wrote:
>>>>how would you use your computer to format the card,
>>>>and why would you
>>
>>'Why not?' you ask.
>[long list of XP format options snipped]
>
>>Here is what my computer's 'Help' says about the instruction 'Format'.
>>That lot is for XP. W2000 will be different and so too will be Vista.
>>Then there is Apple and Linux. Obviously not all of these options will
>>apply to a memory card for a camera but if the proper operation of
>>your camera depends on a particular setting and you don't give it to
>>it, then you can expect trouble.
>
>Absolutely. That's why I wrote
>"Of course you need to know which file system the
>camera expects and how to use the tools of your operating system to
>create just such a file system. For some people this seems to be an
>unsurmountable problem."
>
>>Formatting using your camera will
>>ensure that everything is done correctly.
>
>And that's why I said
>"In any case, it _IS_ more complex than using the
>format command in your camera which is one good reason to use the
>camera."

Sorry. I wasn't trying claim that you were wrong. All I was doing was
illustrating your point.



Eric Stevens
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card 

? <mscotgrove DeleteThis @aol.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:14f5e0d2-7a5c-42d2-9f6d-d1fc1d9f651c@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 12, 10:29 pm, "David J Taylor" <david-tay... DeleteThis @blueyonder.neither-
this-part.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:
> Jürgen Exner wrote:
>
> []
>
> > There are also claims that a file system created by the camera might
> > be different than the same file system created by a computer program.
> > If that is the case then one of those two is broken and creates a
> > non-conforming file system. Unfortunately if your camera is the one
> > that creates a broken file system and expects a broken file system
> > then there is just about nothing you can do but to use the broken
> > formatter in the camera.
> []
> > jue
>
> Hardly "broken" if the computer chooses NTFS and the camera requires FAT.
> Or FAT16 and FAT32. User error.
>
> But as you said, it's easier in the camera in any case, so just do it that
> way to avoid problems.
>
> Cheers,
> David

I have a feeling - and would be interested to know if it is correct -
my feeling is that when an xD card is formatted, all sectors are set
to a value of 0FFH. This makes recovery of old photos impossible.
Other chips, CF, SD etc just rewrite the directory, and so recovery is
always possible.

<end quote>
IMHO, this happens only with a full format. The quick format only deletes
the TOC, table of contents. I did a full format of my hard drive recently,
and I did a full format, not quick (not taking any chances with viruses).


--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr
 >> Stay informed about: Reformatting the XD picture card