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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)
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On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:37:28 GMT, "David J Taylor"
<david-taylor DeleteThis @blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
<seqYi.43899$c_1.36531@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
>John Navas wrote:
>> That's a big part of why I love the huge zoom range of my DMC-FZ8.
>> While it's not as wide at 36 mm (35 mm equiv) as the latest 28 mm wide
>> zooms, it's faster at the tele end, and I can usually get the wide
>> angle I want, often wider than 28 mm (24 mm or even 20 mm), with
>> stitched images.
>
>Well, you can now take the approach of a single-walk round lens with a
>27 - 300mm zoom range, available from several manufacturers, some
>including IS/VR. So there may not be a need to change lenses anything
>like as often.
Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR Di VC LD Aspherical [IF] Macro (Model
A20)? With the cropping factor of typical non-full frame bodies, that
would be much worse on the wide end than the Leica lens on my DMC-FZ8,
not much longer on the long end, much slower, and not even close
optically.
>I weighed by DSLR versus my compact camera outfits, and
>the DSLR was only 3oz (85g) heavier, for a similar focal length range.
With what lens? With something reasonably close to the Leica lens, like
the Canon EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM Autofocus lens, the weight
difference is huge:
* DMC-FZ8: 310 g
* Canon 300D + EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM: 560 g + 1,670 g = 2,230 g
Even with the less good Tamron, the weight difference is still huge:
* Canon 300D + Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR: 560 g + 555 g = 1,115 g
--
Best regards,
John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com> |
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Since: Feb 16, 2006
Posts: 656
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <ftg4j3986fl3ei5oi184dbr87kaa30mjpu.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>, John Navas
<spamfilter1.TakeThisOut@navasgroup.com> wrote:
> Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR Di VC LD Aspherical [IF] Macro (Model
> A20)? With the cropping factor of typical non-full frame bodies, that
> would be much worse on the wide end than the Leica lens on my DMC-FZ8,
> not much longer on the long end, much slower, and not even close
> optically.
the tamron just started shipping a few weeks ago. because it is so
new, there are no tests of it yet (that i have seen). so, how do you
know it is 'not even close optically' ? you are just assuming it is
not that great with zero facts to back it up. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:43:50 -0800, Rich <rander3127.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in
<1194475430.199350.33670.TakeThisOut@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com>:
>On Nov 7, 4:37 pm, "David J Taylor" <david-tay....TakeThisOut@blueyonder.not-this-
>bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:
>> John Navas wrote:
>> > That's a big part of why I love the huge zoom range of my DMC-FZ8.
>> > While it's not as wide at 36 mm (35 mm equiv) as the latest 28 mm wide
>> > zooms, it's faster at the tele end, and I can usually get the wide
>> > angle I want, often wider than 28 mm (24 mm or even 20 mm), with
>> > stitched images.
>>
>> Well, you can now take the approach of a single-walk round lens with a
>> 27 - 300mm zoom range, available from several manufacturers, some
>> including IS/VR. So there may not be a need to change lenses anything
>> like as often. I weighed by DSLR versus my compact camera outfits, and
>> the DSLR was only 3oz (85g) heavier, for a similar focal length range.
>>
>> I also use stitched images, and find them very effective (I use the
>> paid-for AutoPano Pro variant of AutoStitch). I've also just bought a
>> Panasonic TZ3 as an ultra-lightweight carry-round camera - that's 28 -
>> 280mm.
>The ultra compact P&S cameras serve a purpose, to be very portable and
>still afford some kind of image, better than a camera phone.
>The larger P&Ss also serve a purpose, as a practice target for a
>strong 7-iron.
The compact Panasonic DMC-FZ8 prosumer super-zoom bridge camera is
objectively better in terms of resolution than comparable DSLRs even
with fixed focal length prime lenses, much less roughly comparable zoom
lenses, and produces even better results in many cases due to big
advantages in terms of size, weight, lens speed, lens quality, handling
and flexibility.
--
Best regards,
John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com> >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:13 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:12:02 -0800, nospam <nospam.DeleteThis@nospam.invalid> wrote
in <071120071612020610%nospam@nospam.invalid>:
>In article <ftg4j3986fl3ei5oi184dbr87kaa30mjpu.DeleteThis@4ax.com>, John Navas
><spamfilter1.DeleteThis@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR Di VC LD Aspherical [IF] Macro (Model
>> A20)? With the cropping factor of typical non-full frame bodies, that
>> would be much worse on the wide end than the Leica lens on my DMC-FZ8,
>> not much longer on the long end, much slower, and not even close
>> optically.
>
>the tamron just started shipping a few weeks ago. because it is so
>new, there are no tests of it yet (that i have seen). so, how do you
>know it is 'not even close optically' ? you are just assuming it is
>not that great with zero facts to back it up.
True. I'm basing that on (a) experience with other Tamron wide range
zoom lenses and (b) the extreme specs of this lens. I'm pretty sure
Tamron hasn't found some magic that no other lens designers know of. 
--
Best regards,
John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com> >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Jul 08, 2006
Posts: 182
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:00 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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John Navas wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:04:32 -0800, SMS ???• ?
> <scharf.steven DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote in
> <4731b77b$0$79916$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:
>
>
>>Rich wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I had a look at the output (at 80 ISO) of a Fuji 9000 super zoom. It
>>>looked like it had been filtered through textured glass, so inferior
>>>to a decent DSLR output it wasn't funny.
>>>I'm only guessing, but I would wager that if some company (whatever
>>>happened to the Sigma??) put out a fixed lens, or 2-3x zoom P&S with a
>>>relatively compact body and at least a 4/3rds sensor, for $800 it
>>>would sell to the DSLR crowd anyway. Olympus produced a 35mm macro
>>>lens with an f3.5 focal length. If that lens weren't in a macro body,
>>>it would only occupy about 1/2" x 1/2" of space and would allow for a
>>>body that would be easily pocketable.
>>
>>Then people would complain, "if only they had made the lens detachable
>>and made other lenses available for wide-angle and telephoto," and
>>demand for add-on lenses and adapters would boom again.
>>
>>Look what happened with the booming after-market for lenses and adapters
>>for the high-end point and shoot cameras. ...
>
>
> The aftermarket is actually pretty small, not "booming" -- the vast
> majority of users don't buy such accessories, which is why they are so
> hard to find at retail.
This does echo my experiences with finding wide and tele adapters for
fixed lens cameras, in my city the camera shops only stock either a
small selection of them made for video cameras (to small in diameter to
be adapted) and some pricey ones made specifically for particular evf cams.
Such as the Olympus adapters made for the E10 and E20 and the adapters
for the Sony R1, neither of wich could be described as "cheap" compared
to the retail price of some consumer level zoom (d)slr lenses. >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Oct 30, 2007
Posts: 209
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:00 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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dj_nme wrote:
> This does echo my experiences with finding wide and tele adapters for
> fixed lens cameras, in my city the camera shops only stock either a
> small selection of them made for video cameras (to small in diameter to
> be adapted) and some pricey ones made specifically for particular evf cams.
> Such as the Olympus adapters made for the E10 and E20 and the adapters
> for the Sony R1, neither of wich could be described as "cheap" compared
> to the retail price of some consumer level zoom (d)slr lenses.
In Silicon Valley, I was surprised to see non-camera stores such as
Fry's and Micro-Center carrying such a large variety of adapters and
other accessories that you'd think would have to be ordered on-line or
purchased from a real camera store. The catch is that they only carry
them for the top-selling cameras, i.e. the Canon G series and the Canon
A series. You're not going to find any adapters for Olympus or Sony at a
big box store.
When I wanted the wide-angle adapter for my G2 I could have bought the
Canon lens and adapter locally, but everything I read said to avoid the
Canon stuff because the adapter design was flawed (too large) and it
interfered with the flash. I ordered the Lensmate and found the A-28 new
from Ritz. >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:00 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:45:29 -0800, SMS ???• ?
<scharf.steven RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote in
<47325bc3$0$79859$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:
>dj_nme wrote:
>
>> This does echo my experiences with finding wide and tele adapters for
>> fixed lens cameras, in my city the camera shops only stock either a
>> small selection of them made for video cameras (to small in diameter to
>> be adapted) and some pricey ones made specifically for particular evf cams.
>> Such as the Olympus adapters made for the E10 and E20 and the adapters
>> for the Sony R1, neither of wich could be described as "cheap" compared
>> to the retail price of some consumer level zoom (d)slr lenses.
>
>In Silicon Valley, I was surprised to see non-camera stores such as
>Fry's and Micro-Center carrying such a large variety of adapters and
>other accessories that you'd think would have to be ordered on-line or
>purchased from a real camera store. The catch is that they only carry
>them for the top-selling cameras, i.e. the Canon G series and the Canon
>A series. You're not going to find any adapters for Olympus or Sony at a
>big box store.
Sony is #2 in overall sales (Olympus #4). So much for accuracy. LOL
<http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1175724860.html>
--
Best regards,
John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com> >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:00 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:16:50 -0800, SMS ???• ?
<scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote in
<47328d4d$0$79882$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:
>Rich wrote:
>
>>> This does echo my experiences with finding wide and tele adapters for
>>> fixed lens cameras, in my city the camera shops only stock either a
>>> small selection of them made for video cameras (to small in diameter to
>>> be adapted) and some pricey ones made specifically for particular evf cams.
>>> Such as the Olympus adapters made for the E10 and E20 and the adapters
>>> for the Sony R1, neither of wich could be described as "cheap" compared
>>> to the retail price of some consumer level zoom (d)slr lenses.
>>
>> Well, those weren't exactly cruddy 1/2.5" sensored P&Ss, where they?
>
>There are camera shops and then there are camera shops. There is exactly
>one professional camera shop left in my area, Keeble and Shuchat. They
>carried even the more esoteric lenses for the high-end P&S cameras, even
>the less popular models.
The pricey exception that proves the rule, that there is no "booming"
market as claimed by you.
>Before everyone that cared about real wide angle, and real telephoto
>switched to D-SLRs, the lenses for the top-selling high-end point and
>shoot cameras were widely sold, even at big-box stores (not hard as
>there were only a few high-end P&S models that sold in enough volume to
>make it worthwhile)
Nope -- not booming then either.
>Now they're a real niche item,
Oops. Scramble mode. 
>since the high-end
>point and shoot market has been decimated by D-SLRs.
On the contrary -- the prosumer bridge camera market is what's actually
booming.
--
Best regards,
John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com> >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 604
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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John Navas wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:37:28 GMT, "David J Taylor"
> <david-taylor.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
> <seqYi.43899$c_1.36531@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>
>>> That's a big part of why I love the huge zoom range of my DMC-FZ8.
>>> While it's not as wide at 36 mm (35 mm equiv) as the latest 28 mm
>>> wide zooms, it's faster at the tele end, and I can usually get the
>>> wide angle I want, often wider than 28 mm (24 mm or even 20 mm),
>>> with stitched images.
>>
>> Well, you can now take the approach of a single-walk round lens with
>> a 27 - 300mm zoom range, available from several manufacturers, some
>> including IS/VR. So there may not be a need to change lenses
>> anything like as often.
>
> Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR Di VC LD Aspherical [IF] Macro (Model
> A20)? With the cropping factor of typical non-full frame bodies, that
> would be much worse on the wide end than the Leica lens on my DMC-FZ8,
> not much longer on the long end, much slower, and not even close
> optically.
>
>> I weighed by DSLR versus my compact camera outfits, and
>> the DSLR was only 3oz (85g) heavier, for a similar focal length
>> range.
>
> With what lens? With something reasonably close to the Leica lens,
> like the Canon EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM Autofocus lens, the
> weight difference is huge:
> * DMC-FZ8: 310 g
> * Canon 300D + EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM: 560 g + 1,670 g = 2,230
> g Even with the less good Tamron, the weight difference is still huge:
> * Canon 300D + Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR: 560 g + 555 g = 1,115 g
Well, I was thinking more of the 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 Nikon (27-300mm
equivalent). I can't find the numerical review pages online right now,
but I think you will find the performance is similar. The speed issue is
an interesting one - is it better to have an f/5.6 lens on a sensor that's
four times the linear dimension than an f/2.8 lens on the smaller sensor?
It sounds close to me. My own experience shows that the DSLR working at
ISO 400 produces a better image quality than the Panasonic at ISO 100.
The weight comparison was between an SLR outfit with a Nikon D40 with
18-55mm and 55-200mm VR lenses, and a compact outfit with Nikon 8400 (for
wide-angle) and Panasonic FZ5 for IS zoom. Interchangeable lenses versus
interchangeable cameras!
I still have and use both DSLR and compact cameras.
Cheers,
David >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Oct 30, 2007
Posts: 209
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:53 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ron Hunter wrote:
> These cameras aren't DSLRs, and they certainly have their limitations.
> But then a 1957 VW Beetle doesn't have the room of a Rolls Royce, either.
The shutter lag on even the new point and shoots is way too long for
many users. Sports action shots are not possible. I do a lot of sports
photography. There's great value in being able to get the shot of the
bat hitting the ball, the first baseman making the impossible catch,
etc. You can't do that with even the fastest P&S camera. Also, sometimes
you want to capture a lot of frames per second, also not possible with P&S.
For landscape photography, even the longer shutter lags didn't matter
all that much.
The biggest complaint about point and shoot cameras by most owners is
_not_ high ISO noise, they don't even know what that means, it's the
shutter lag. >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 291
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:10 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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SMS ???????????? ??? <scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> No one forces anyone to use the kit lens. The better quality is almost
> certainly at low ISO as well. And of course the advantages of a D-SLR
> over a P&S go beyond image quality anyway, a big advantage is the much
> shorter shutter lag and AF time.
And a big disadvantage of the DSLR is size and weight. If you use
something besides the kit lens, size and weight worsen. Considering
the difference in heft between a Rebel and G7, one would reasonably
expect the Rebel to perform better than it does. >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 291
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:27 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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SMS <scharf.steven.TakeThisOut@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> The shutter lag on even the new point and shoots is way too long for
> many users. Sports action shots are not possible. I do a lot of sports
> photography. There's great value in being able to get the shot of the
> bat hitting the ball, the first baseman making the impossible catch,
> etc. You can't do that with even the fastest P&S camera. Also, sometimes
> you want to capture a lot of frames per second, also not possible with P&S.
My Canon SD800 has relatively short shutter lag, certainly shorter than
the film Yashica T5 Super (with Zeiss lens) that I used to use.
However the shot confirmation makes it impossible to take 2 quick pictures
in a row, although it is rated 1.7 frames/second. Maybe that is only
when continuous mode is selected? Dunno. I really ought to research this
before the next time I use the SD800! >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 604
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:42 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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John Navas wrote:
[]
> Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR Di VC LD Aspherical [IF] Macro (Model
> A20)? With the cropping factor of typical non-full frame bodies, that
> would be much worse on the wide end than the Leica lens on my DMC-FZ8,
> not much longer on the long end, much slower, and not even close
> optically.
Here's a small test I did this morning - same scene photographed with the
Nikon D40 6MP DSLR using the kit lens, and the Panasonic 7MP TZ3 with its
Leica lens:
http://www.david-taylor.myby.co.uk/imaging/QualityExperiments.htm
I know that the exposures are slight different, and that the framing is
slightly different. With the compact camera, I could not set the zoom
precisely as I wanted, with the DSLR what I got was slightly more than
what the viewfinder showed. It's interesting to compare the bottom left
corner for focus, and the top edge for the grey to red transition.
There's a lot even more difference at ISO 400, as would be expected.
Cheers,
David >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 2796
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:42 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David J Taylor wrote:
> John Navas wrote:
> []
>> Tamron AF28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR Di VC LD Aspherical [IF] Macro (Model
>> A20)? With the cropping factor of typical non-full frame bodies, that
>> would be much worse on the wide end than the Leica lens on my DMC-FZ8,
>> not much longer on the long end, much slower, and not even close
>> optically.
>
> Here's a small test I did this morning - same scene photographed with the
> Nikon D40 6MP DSLR using the kit lens, and the Panasonic 7MP TZ3 with its
> Leica lens:
>
> http://www.david-taylor.myby.co.uk/imaging/QualityExperiments.htm
>
> I know that the exposures are slight different, and that the framing is
> slightly different. With the compact camera, I could not set the zoom
> precisely as I wanted, with the DSLR what I got was slightly more than
> what the viewfinder showed. It's interesting to compare the bottom left
> corner for focus, and the top edge for the grey to red transition.
> There's a lot even more difference at ISO 400, as would be expected.
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
>
The lens on one is noticeably better, as is the resolution. The color
is quite different as well. What white balance settings were in use? >> Stay informed about: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL |
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Since: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 291
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:42 am
Post subject: Re: Point & shoots, no improvement as long as sensors stay SMALL [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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