Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper?

John Sheehy <JPS DeleteThis @no.komm> wrote:
>
>> Does Photoshop have an equivalent for PaintShopPro's salt and pepper
>> filter? I have CS2 and can't find anything, other than Noiseware etc.
>> plugins. I'm impressed by the salt+pepper filter in PSP 9. It is very
>> flexible and seems to reduce both film grain (scans) and digicam noise.
>
> Median filter.
> Dust and scratches filter, for streakier things.

The Photoshop median filter works better than I thought it would,
but it seems to soften the image more than the PSP Salt+Pepper filter.
The only control was Radius, and I selected 3 because 1 didn't do much
and 2 made the noise look blotchy. Any ideas?

PaintShopPro has a median filter, in addition to its Salt+Pepper filter.

This thread shows the image in question:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Ltzp
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

Bill Tuthill <ccreekin.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in news:469eb5f3@news.meer.net:

> The Photoshop median filter works better than I thought it would,
> but it seems to soften the image more than the PSP Salt+Pepper filter.
> The only control was Radius, and I selected 3 because 1 didn't do much
> and 2 made the noise look blotchy. Any ideas?

Yeah, I forgot about PS' lack of a threshold control. Try the "Dust and
scratches" filter and use the threshold control.

--

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John P Sheehy <JPS.DeleteThis@no.komm>
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 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

John Sheehy <JPS.RemoveThis@no.komm> wrote:
>
>> The Photoshop median filter works better than I thought it would,
>> but it seems to soften the image more than the PSP Salt+Pepper filter.
>> The only control was Radius, and I selected 3 because 1 didn't do much
>> and 2 made the noise look blotchy. Any ideas?
>
> Yeah, I forgot about PS' lack of a threshold control.
> Try the "Dust and scratches" filter and use the threshold control.

Thanks again, John! I did as you suggested, and I still think
the Salt+Pepper filter in PaintShopPro runs circles around any of the
Photoshop noise filters. Maybe Adobe does it this way intentionally
to support sales of Noiseware etc.

You've probably got better things to do with your time, but perhaps
you could do something in Photoshop that would give better results than
what I did here (bottom of thread) with PSP Salt+Pepper filter.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00L1Td
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

Bill Tuthill <ccreekin.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in news:46a3efe0@news.meer.net:

> http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00L1Td

Are you talking about the young people sitting in the grass? Is that the
origial pixel resolution of the scan? If so, you scanned with a scanner
that aliases, and probably has too litle resolution.

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John P Sheehy <JPS.DeleteThis@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

John Sheehy <JPS.TakeThisOut@no.komm> wrote:
>
>> http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00L1Td
>
> Are you talking about the young people sitting in the grass? Is that the
> origial pixel resolution of the scan? If so, you scanned with a scanner
> that aliases, and probably has too litle resolution.

You're right. The original is the "large" JPEG in the post above mine.

My next question would be, how much better are Noiseware/NoiseNinja etcetera
than PSP's Salt+Pepper filter? I don't own any noise reduction software,
having no real need for it (it's easy enough to blur blue sky, which is
usually the only grain/noise that bothers me).
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

Bill Tuthill <ccreekin RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in news:46a4e9c3@news.meer.net:

> You're right. The original is the "large" JPEG in the post above
> mine.

I would look into re-scanning before thinking about post-processing. The
scanning is horrible in that image. It looks like only a tiny fraction
of the total area was point-sampled. The aliasing is so harsh in some
spots, I can't even see what the subject matter is. The grain is being
sampled at dark at light parts, and is being over-emphasized in the
image. Did you downsample this? How did you downsample it? There's
something very wrong with this JPEG which isn't a noise issue per se.

> My next question would be, how much better are Noiseware/NoiseNinja
> etcetera than PSP's Salt+Pepper filter? I don't own any noise
> reduction software, having no real need for it (it's easy enough to
> blur blue sky, which is usually the only grain/noise that bothers me).

I haven't looked at these programs in years; I don't know what their
capabilties are, but I doubt that they can do anything with the image you
linked to, other than provide a very blurry, low-detail image. The
problem is the very fabric of the image; not added noise.



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John P Sheehy <JPS RemoveThis @no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

John Sheehy added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

> Bill Tuthill <ccreekin.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:46a4e9c3@news.meer.net:
>
>> You're right. The original is the "large" JPEG in the post
>> above mine.
>
> I would look into re-scanning before thinking about
> post-processing. The scanning is horrible in that image. It
> looks like only a tiny fraction of the total area was
> point-sampled. The aliasing is so harsh in some spots, I
> can't even see what the subject matter is. The grain is being
> sampled at dark at light parts, and is being over-emphasized
> in the image. Did you downsample this? How did you
> downsample it? There's something very wrong with this JPEG
> which isn't a noise issue per se.
>
>> My next question would be, how much better are
>> Noiseware/NoiseNinja etcetera than PSP's Salt+Pepper filter?
>> I don't own any noise reduction software, having no real need
>> for it (it's easy enough to blur blue sky, which is usually
>> the only grain/noise that bothers me).
>
> I haven't looked at these programs in years; I don't know what
> their capabilties are, but I doubt that they can do anything
> with the image you linked to, other than provide a very
> blurry, low-detail image. The problem is the very fabric of
> the image; not added noise.
>
I know I'm coming in late, but I saw the mention of PSP. I have
been a user for many years, now on PSP 9. I don't like what Corel
did to it so I refused to buy X or XI. Prior to 9, I used Edge
Preserving Smooth as my primary smoother for both scanning and
digital images exhibiting noise, although the type of noise is
completely different. PSP 9, though, has a simply outstanding
tool called DCNR (Digital Camera Noise Reduction) which was
created for the obvious, but it is equally adept at scan noise,
whether it comes from film grain, half-tone dot patterns, or
whatever. And, it has a second control for sharpness that is
intended to be used after the noise is eliminated, realizing that
there is always a trade-off between noise elimination and
preservation of detail and sharpness. For sharpening, I used to
use Unsharp Mask, but it always gave what I thought were fake
looking images, until I was directed to try DCNR. It works so
well it is hard to believe unless you see it.

I'm obviously not disputing your recommendation for the OP to
rescan his print, I just jumped in when I saw "PSP."

--
HP, aka Jerry
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

HEMI-Powered <none RemoveThis @none.en> wrote:
>
> I know I'm coming in late, but I saw the mention of PSP. I have
> been a user for many years, now on PSP 9. I don't like what Corel
> did to it so I refused to buy X or XI. Prior to 9, I used Edge
> Preserving Smooth as my primary smoother for both scanning and
> digital images exhibiting noise, although the type of noise is
> completely different. PSP 9, though, has a simply outstanding
> tool called DCNR (Digital Camera Noise Reduction) which was
> created for the obvious, but it is equally adept at scan noise,
> whether it comes from film grain, half-tone dot patterns, or
> whatever. And, it has a second control for sharpness that is
> intended to be used after the noise is eliminated, realizing that
> there is always a trade-off between noise elimination and
> preservation of detail and sharpness. For sharpening, I used to
> use Unsharp Mask, but it always gave what I thought were fake
> looking images, until I was directed to try DCNR. It works so
> well it is hard to believe unless you see it. --HP, aka Jerry

Thanks very much, Jerry! The Digital Camera Noise Reduction filter
was in a different menu (Adjust > Photo Fix instead of Add/Remove Noise)
so I had not seen it, and nobody had ever told me about it.
In some ways it works better, others worse, than the Salt+Pepper filter.
Do you use it primarily for digicam noise, after selecting an area?
It wreaks havoc with the texture of grass.

Speaking of PSP 9, do you know about JPEG save and chroma subsampling?
I've heard it's messed up in PSP 9.
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

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 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

HEMI-Powered <none.DeleteThis@none.en> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of PSP 9, do you know about JPEG save and chroma
>> subsampling? I've heard it's messed up in PSP 9.
>>
> Yes, I do, but from a practical standpoint, not a mathematical one.

What I should have said is: I have heard via web postings, one is below,
that PaintShopPro had JPEG save problems in version 8.

Paint Shop Pro 8 has a bug that causes a cumulative error when opening
and resaving the same Jpeg (prior versions use IJG and are not affected).
--Gordon Richardson, rec.photo.digital, Nov 18 2003

So I stopped using JPEG save in PSP. Do you know if this bug was fixed
in PSP version 9?

Also, I think the JPEG quality slider and chroma pulldown menu in GIMP
are easier to use than the interface in PSP.
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper? 

Fed-Up-With-Corel added these comments in the current discussion
du jour ...

> If you are impressed with PSP's "Salt & Pepper" or its other
> similar noise filters then you need to look at PhotoLine 32's
> "Remove Dust/Scratches" filter. It beats any of the
> capabilities built into Paint Shop Pro and PhotoShop. I tested
> it between the three programs on the same badly degraded
> archival photo-scan, just to be sure that I wasn't imagining
> its superiority over the other programs' noise-filter
> offerings.
>
> By the way, you can also recreate PSP's mysterious(?)
> "Clarify" filter with ease by using PhotoLine's Median-Filter
> and setting negative intensity values (-70% to -150% works
> well, but you can go up to -500%), used with a large radius
> setting. It produces an even nicer "clarify" effect than the
> dedicated filter in PSP. With much more latitude of control
> over how you want to apply it. Use only the L (luminosity)
> channel with the filter's Lab options if you want so that you
> don't unnaturally alter the saturation levels, as what happens
> when using PSP's "Clarify". (Or deselect all but the I channel
> in HIS mode.) Do you want to enhance the color intensity
> between objects without changing the luminosity for a special
> effect? Use the Median-Filter's HIS mode and deselect all but
> the S(aturation) channel while using negative values.
> Amazingly versatile it is. A workbench full of unique,
> adaptable, and versatile tools that are unheard of in the
> other programs.
>
Having not used PhotoLine, what is it about Clarify that is
"mysterious"? I assume you mean the math that it uses to do it's
"magic"? Yes, I would say that is mysterious since it's purpose
is contrast enhancement but far beyond ordinary
brightness/contrast functions. It adds drama and "pop" to an
image when used judicially, and can somewhat coverup a slightly
out-of-focus image or one lack just a bit in DOF. It is a highly
useful tool to me in all of the available strenghts.

BTW, for the record, where does one buy PhotoLine? I don't haunt
computer stores because I'm not really in the market for a PSP 9
replacement, at least not until my next PC with Vista. I have
been assuming I would have to lower myself to the clay bricks
folks Elements, certainly NOT Microsoft's feeble attempt at a
graphics editor. Thanks.

--
HP, aka Jerry
 >> Stay informed about: Photoshop equiv of PaintShopPRo salt+pepper?