Photo editing software recomendation

On Nov 29, 3:11 pm, Dave Cohen <u....TakeThisOut@example.net> wrote:
> David J Taylor wrote:
> > Allen wrote:
> >> Don Stauffer in Minnesota wrote:
> > []
> >>> I used to be a big Paint Shop Pro fan. I currently use it. But I
> >>> just read in the paper this morning that Corel is closing their local
> >>> office, the digital imaging products office, which was responsible
> >>> for PSP (it is the old Jasc bunch) and laying off everyone. I think
> >>> I will switch over to Photoshop Elements now. I use Premiere Elements
> >>> for video, and really like it. Friends I know swear by Elements so
> >>> when I am ready for something new it will be PS Elements even if
> >>> Corel does introduce a new version of PSP.
> >> Sorry to hear that. I've been using PSP since before digital
> >> photography was an issue, going back to version 3, as I recall. I
> >> consider the last release (11) as a backward step.
> >> Allen
>
> > Sorry to hear that. Not a good time of year for such news. I have the V3
> > disks and manual. Perhaps even earlier.
>
> > There is a 12 as well, but time to move on, as you say.
>
> > Cheers,
> > David
>
> As I posted earlier, I got PSP 9 for a give away price. The various PSP
> groups seem to feel that was about a good a release as any. If I had to
> buy something at the normal price, I would get Elements based on the
> extensive documentation available.
> However, I do have a question for you folks. If you have a working copy
> of PSP running on your system, why does it matter what Corel does. Just
> keep on using what you've got. A lot of people are using much earlier
> versions. I liked 7, but 9 has added features I regard as much needed,
> like cropping to a fixed ratio and better one step fixing. Another very
> easy to use package is PhotoPlus from Serif, however, it doesn't seem to
> be that well known.
> Dave Cohen

Indeed, I have both v8 and X on my computer, and still use both. But
occasionally new things come out. Right now the versions of PSP I
have do not read RAW from my camera to make HDR images. Rather than
upgrade to the latest PSP, which I had been considering, I intend to
try PS Elements which does a nice job of that.

There are likely to be other features. I used to use Micrografix
"Photo Magic" and it was fine for its day, but current editors are far
superior and offer newer functions. I suspect this trend will continue.
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:31:19 +0000, John Navas wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:19:10 GMT, Dave Cohen <user.TakeThisOut@example.net> wrote in
> <29F3j.17655$7T.17350@trndny09>:
>
>>Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>>> "H.S." <hs.samix.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ray wrote:
>
>>>>> I would suggest GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program) and to convert raw
>>>>> files, ufraw - those are what I use.
>>>>>
>>>> I second that suggestion.
>>>
>>> The GIMP and UFRAW are an excellent choice. Just be
>>> sure to acquire the recently released 2.4 version of
>>> GIMP rather than the older 2.2 version.
>>>
>>> http://gimp.org
>>> http://ufraw.sourceforge.net
>>>
>>> Another program that might be very handy is /exiftool/,
>>> which is a program that reads (and writes) EXIF data in
>>> image files.
>>>
>>> http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/
>>
>>You can try Gimp. I think it's very non-intuitive. 2.4 is a little
>>better for cropping, the previous version couldn't be more archaic for a
>>very simple function. It's not enough for a program to be capable (Gimp
>>is), it has to be comfortable to use.
>
> I agree. I struggled with The Gimp for a fairly long time, and finally
> just gave up on it -- took way too much time and effort to do pretty
> basic tasks.
>
>>You can pick up PSP 9 for $9.95 + $3.95 postage via Amazon.com. It's an
>>excellent program. I've never used Elements, my understanding is it's
>>very good plus you'll find lot's of books on both that and PS in your
>>local library. ...
>
> I second those motions. Elements 6 is excellent, if a bit sluggish.

I understand that the latest version of GIMP has been revamped
extensively. One advantage is that it is absolutely free, so you can
evaluate at no cost except for a little time.
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

John Navas <spamfilter1.RemoveThis@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>
>Be sure to get the latest bug fix (2.4.2) because the initial 2.4
>release was pretty shaky.

John, why do you say these things? The changes in 2.4.1
and 2.4.2 do not indicate anything "pretty shaky" about
the 2.4.0 release.

>GIMP proponents used to claim GIMP was more logical, that you just had

For some people it *is* more intuitive. Of course, if
you've already learned something else, then *that* will
seem "intuitive".

>to learn how to think like it, a crazy and arrogant attitude that did
>much to hold GIMP back on Windows, along with stability issues and
>feature gaps, what with excellent inexpensive alternatives available.

It certainly is not designed with a "windows" style
interface.

But that of course is no disadvantage...

>>One advantage is that it is absolutely free, so you can
>>evaluate at no cost except for a little time.
>
>Likewise free demos of other software, including Photoshop Elements 6:
><https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=photoshop%5Felements>

Very good! You got something correct this time.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.RemoveThis@apaflo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

John Navas <spamfilter1 RemoveThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:53:26 -0900, floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson)
>wrote in <87eje7tsqx.fld RemoveThis @apaflo.com>:
>
>>John Navas <spamfilter1 RemoveThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Be sure to get the latest bug fix (2.4.2) because the initial 2.4
>>>release was pretty shaky.
>>
>>John, why do you say these things? The changes in 2.4.1
>>and 2.4.2 do not indicate anything "pretty shaky" about
>>the 2.4.0 release.
>
>GIMP 2.4.2 Released 2007-11-21
>
>Three weeks later enough bug-fixes have piled up to warrant another
>bug-fix release in the stable GIMP 2.4 series. Please see the NEWS file
>for details.
>
>GIMP 2.4.1 Released 2007-10-31
>
>GIMP 2.4.1 is a bug-fix release in the stable 2.4 series. It fixes
>problems that were discovered after the 2.4.0 release. Please see the
>NEWS file for details.
>
>GIMP 2.4.0 Released 2007-10-24

So just what about that suggest that it was "pretty
shaky"?

Between the initial release and the 2.4.1 update, there
were 16 changes logged. Two of them, both relating to
handling "broken plug-ins", caused a crash (another is
listed as fixing a "potential crash", so apparently it
could have but that was never reported).

That does not describe a shakey program at all! (I
looked at 2.4.2, and haven't gotten around to upgrading
because there simply wasn't anything critical.)

What I see with the 2.4 release is a *very* responsive
development team! No waiting six months while they take
a rest. Of course it is also true that the 2.3
development versions had been relatively stable for
quite some time. I switched to the 2.3 release many
months ago, and was very pleased with it right from the
start. There was one development release that actually
caused me a real problem, and all the rest amounted to a
fairly smooth continuum of progress towards the final
product.

>>[SNIP GIMP advocacy]
>
>I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of GIMP. I find it
>unintuitive and clumsy. You don't. And there we have it.

You can't debate the pros and cons of GIMP, and nobody
wants to hear your biases.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

>
> You can't debate the pros and cons of GIMP, and nobody
> wants to hear your biases.

FWIW - we all have biases, so what would make his any less relevant than
yours? I've never used photoshop, but I find the 'older' GIMP to be fairly
intuitive - I suspect the new one is better though I haven't used it yet.
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:41:10 -0700, ray <ray.RemoveThis@zianet.com> wrote in
<pan.2007.11.30.16.41.08.299231.RemoveThis@zianet.com>:

>On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:31:19 +0000, John Navas wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:19:10 GMT, Dave Cohen <user.RemoveThis@example.net> wrote in
>> <29F3j.17655$7T.17350@trndny09>:

>>>You can try Gimp. I think it's very non-intuitive. 2.4 is a little
>>>better for cropping, the previous version couldn't be more archaic for a
>>>very simple function. It's not enough for a program to be capable (Gimp
>>>is), it has to be comfortable to use.
>>
>> I agree. I struggled with The Gimp for a fairly long time, and finally
>> just gave up on it -- took way too much time and effort to do pretty
>> basic tasks.
>>
>>>You can pick up PSP 9 for $9.95 + $3.95 postage via Amazon.com. It's an
>>>excellent program. I've never used Elements, my understanding is it's
>>>very good plus you'll find lot's of books on both that and PS in your
>>>local library. ...
>>
>> I second those motions. Elements 6 is excellent, if a bit sluggish.
>
>I understand that the latest version of GIMP has been revamped
>extensively.

I think it is better, as was noted in the earlier post, but is still
quite a bit less intuitive and harder to use than programs like
Photoshop Elements 6.

Be sure to get the latest bug fix (2.4.2) because the initial 2.4
release was pretty shaky.

GIMP proponents used to claim GIMP was more logical, that you just had
to learn how to think like it, a crazy and arrogant attitude that did
much to hold GIMP back on Windows, along with stability issues and
feature gaps, what with excellent inexpensive alternatives available.

>One advantage is that it is absolutely free, so you can
>evaluate at no cost except for a little time.

Likewise free demos of other software, including Photoshop Elements 6:
<https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=photoshop%5Felements>

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

In article <oag0l3tctm40g3svqv89j18dg16dvnb11u DeleteThis @4ax.com>, John Navas
<spamfilter1 DeleteThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:

> GIMP proponents used to claim GIMP was more logical, that you just had
> to learn how to think like it,

"works just fine, if you learn how to use it effectively."

"It's a poor workman who blames his tools."

> a crazy and arrogant attitude

you're catching on.
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:11:51 GMT, Dave Cohen <user.DeleteThis@example.net> wrote in
<rWF3j.21643$ht1.12217@trndny01>:

>David J Taylor wrote:
>> Allen wrote:
>>> Don Stauffer in Minnesota wrote:
>> []
>>>> I used to be a big Paint Shop Pro fan. I currently use it. But I
>>>> just read in the paper this morning that Corel is closing their local
>>>> office, the digital imaging products office, which was responsible
>>>> for PSP (it is the old Jasc bunch) and laying off everyone. I think
>>>> I will switch over to Photoshop Elements now. ...

>As I posted earlier, I got PSP 9 for a give away price. The various PSP
>groups seem to feel that was about a good a release as any. If I had to
>buy something at the normal price, I would get Elements based on the
>extensive documentation available.
>However, I do have a question for you folks. If you have a working copy
>of PSP running on your system, why does it matter what Corel does. Just
>keep on using what you've got. A lot of people are using much earlier
>versions. I liked 7, but 9 has added features I regard as much needed,
>like cropping to a fixed ratio and better one step fixing. ...

You've essentially answered your own question. Current software keeps
getting better and better, raising the bar, while old software remains
frozen in time. Switching to current software can make your work easier
and faster, and let you do things easily that would be difficult with
old software if possible at all.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:53:26 -0900, floyd DeleteThis @apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson)
wrote in <87eje7tsqx.fld DeleteThis @apaflo.com>:

>John Navas <spamfilter1 DeleteThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>Be sure to get the latest bug fix (2.4.2) because the initial 2.4
>>release was pretty shaky.
>
>John, why do you say these things? The changes in 2.4.1
>and 2.4.2 do not indicate anything "pretty shaky" about
>the 2.4.0 release.

GIMP 2.4.2 Released 2007-11-21

Three weeks later enough bug-fixes have piled up to warrant another
bug-fix release in the stable GIMP 2.4 series. Please see the NEWS file
for details.

GIMP 2.4.1 Released 2007-10-31

GIMP 2.4.1 is a bug-fix release in the stable 2.4 series. It fixes
problems that were discovered after the 2.4.0 release. Please see the
NEWS file for details.

GIMP 2.4.0 Released 2007-10-24

>[SNIP GIMP advocacy]

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of GIMP. I find it
unintuitive and clumsy. You don't. And there we have it.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

John Navas <spamfilter1.DeleteThis@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:59:18 -0900, floyd.DeleteThis@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson)
>wrote in <871wa7tpp5.fld.DeleteThis@apaflo.com>:
>
>>John Navas <spamfilter1.DeleteThis@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>>GIMP 2.4.2 Released 2007-11-21
>>>GIMP 2.4.1 Released 2007-10-31
>>>GIMP 2.4.0 Released 2007-10-24
>>
>>So just what about that suggest that it was "pretty
>>shaky"?
>
>Two fast follow-up releases with a month to fix bugs.
>In addition, 2.4.0 crashed twice on me before I abandoned it.
>
>>What I see with the 2.4 release is a *very* responsive
>>development team!
>
>As a professional in software development, I see it as a sure sign of
>poor software quality. Good software doesn't need hasty bug fixes, and
>that kind of release speed makes quality methods impossible.
>
>>You can't debate the pros and cons of GIMP, and nobody
>>wants to hear your biases.
>
>Always the insult when the argument has run out of gas.
>I'm not to blame for the design and implementation flaws in GIMP.
>"The lady doth protest too much, methinks!"

I think you are protesting a bit too much!

As I mentioned, I've used the development track for the
2.4 release for a long time.

I simply do not believe that it crashed twice on you,
unless it was simply your own bumbling fault at not
being able to install it correctly.

Some of the things you claim are just a bit much over
the edge John. Your credibility is getting very low.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.DeleteThis@apaflo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

ray <ray.DeleteThis@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>> You can't debate the pros and cons of GIMP, and nobody
>> wants to hear your biases.
>
>FWIW - we all have biases, so what would make his any less relevant than
>yours?

Oh, small things such as the fact that I've actually
been using the program. That helps. I may be biased,
as everyone is, but at least I can provide commentary
that is based on reality.

>I've never used photoshop, but I find the 'older' GIMP to be fairly
>intuitive - I suspect the new one is better though I haven't used it yet.

So, like John, you are discussing a program you have not
used. And accusing someone who has used it for months
of bias (even though you agreed with me).

Fascinating train of thought you have there Ray...

It is a step up from what John provides here though.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.DeleteThis@apaflo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

John Navas <spamfilter1 DeleteThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:06:53 -0800, nospam <nospam DeleteThis @nospam.invalid> wrote
>in <301120071506536412%nospam@nospam.invalid>:
>
>>In article <oag0l3tctm40g3svqv89j18dg16dvnb11u DeleteThis @4ax.com>, John Navas
>><spamfilter1 DeleteThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> GIMP proponents used to claim GIMP was more logical, that you just had
>>> to learn how to think like it,
>>
>>"works just fine, if you learn how to use it effectively."
>>
>>"It's a poor workman who blames his tools."
>
>I'm not blaming the tool. I simply don't like it because it doesn't fit
>my needs. If you like it because it fits your needs, all well and good.
>Just don't try to claim that it fits my needs.

Lets see, "crazy and arrogant attitude", "feature gaps",
"instability issues", "pretty shaky"... none of that
supported by facts, and you say you aren't blaming the
tool.

It's the poor workman talking...

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd DeleteThis @apaflo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation 

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:59:18 -0900, floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson)
wrote in <871wa7tpp5.fld RemoveThis @apaflo.com>:

>John Navas <spamfilter1 RemoveThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>GIMP 2.4.2 Released 2007-11-21
>>GIMP 2.4.1 Released 2007-10-31
>>GIMP 2.4.0 Released 2007-10-24
>
>So just what about that suggest that it was "pretty
>shaky"?

Two fast follow-up releases with a month to fix bugs.
In addition, 2.4.0 crashed twice on me before I abandoned it.

>What I see with the 2.4 release is a *very* responsive
>development team!

As a professional in software development, I see it as a sure sign of
poor software quality. Good software doesn't need hasty bug fixes, and
that kind of release speed makes quality methods impossible.

>You can't debate the pros and cons of GIMP, and nobody
>wants to hear your biases.

Always the insult when the argument has run out of gas.
I'm not to blame for the design and implementation flaws in GIMP.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks!"

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Photo editing software recomendation