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Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negat..

 
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Darrrylp

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Since: May 24, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 31) Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>equipment>large-format, others (more info?)

Terry Smith wrote:
> I'm a large format photographer using an Epson 4870 scanner to scan my 5x7
> negatives. I've had a custom 5x7 carrier made to hold the negatives (similar
> to the 4x5 transparency carrier that came with the scanner). In general,
> this setup work quite well, but I'm getting moiré patterns, especially in
> the middle of the negatives where there is a lot of single tonality area
> (like open sky) mostly on B&W negatives.
>
> Does anyone have a clue on how to minimize this moiré pattern problem? (and
> no, I'd rather not send my negs out to be drum scanned... <s>)
>
> Thanks,
> Terry

Focal Point Introduces Anti-Newton Ring Glass For Scaners

March 17, 2006
PRESS RELEASE


Focal Point Introduces Anti-Newton Ring Glass for Scanners

Focal Point, the foremost supplier of Anti-Newton Ring glass to the
photographic industry announces introduction of their line of products
designed especially for scanners. "After sixteen years of solving the
Newton ring problem for photolabs, we're bringing our technology to
the digital age." Says Michael Sparks, President of Focal Point.

Newton rings, those "oil on water" looking optical effects occur
when two smooth surfaces like glass and film are sandwiched together.
Frequently small "pockets" of air are trapped between these
materials. As light passed through this void it's refracted causing a
Newton ring. Focal Points Anti-Newton Ring glass is specially designed
to eliminate these image ruining problems without effecting the quality
of your scan.

Newton Rings are difficult to retouch out of an image, and image
correcting software can have problems distinguishing them from the
image itself. Many scanner owners have found that eliminating the
Newton rings prior to scanning makes for a higher quality image.

Focal Point specializes in eliminating the Newton ring problem. We work
with our clients (amateurs, professionals, and manufacturers) to make
their scanners Newton ring free. Our solutions range from the
simplicity of replacing plain scanner glass with our Anti-Newton Glass
to custom modification or construction of film holders.

For More Information Contact
Michael Sparks, Focal Point, 3129 Canterbury St., Deltona, FL. 32738
386-860-3918, mike.RemoveThis@fpointinc.com
PRESS RELEASE

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ellis

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Since: May 24, 2006
Posts: 5



(Msg. 32) Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <e4tfvn$rn9$1@nnrp.gol.com>,
David J. Littleboy <davidjl.DeleteThis@gol.com> wrote:

>The Epson flatbed's don't focus. You need to test for optimal focus, and
>hold the film at that distance above the glass. The new V700 (or V750)
>provides means for doing that.

My 4870 has film holders that keep the film off the glass.

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Ace

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Since: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 29



(Msg. 33) Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jim

<I shoot 11x14 Ektachrome and scan it on an 11x17 Epson 836XL with the
transparency top.>
How big are the files?

Bob AZ
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Jim Hemenway

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Since: May 22, 2006
Posts: 3



(Msg. 34) Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hi Bob:

They vary between 260 and 280 megabytes. That's as 8 bit at 800 dpi as
Photoshop .psd files.

Here's some which I had in a large format group exhibition in
Springfield, MA in April.

http://www.hemenway.com/VPC-show/

Jim

Ace wrote:

> Jim
>
> <I shoot 11x14 Ektachrome and scan it on an 11x17 Epson 836XL with the
> transparency top.>
> How big are the files?
>
> Bob AZ
>
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Terry Smith

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Since: Apr 24, 2006
Posts: 24



(Msg. 35) Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

And just hoes does one prevent Newton rings with 11x14 film?

The potential for film sag and film touching the glass must be HUGE...



"Jim Hemenway" <Jim DeleteThis @hemenway.com> wrote in message
news:44765972.7060609@hemenway.com...
> Hi Bob:
>
> They vary between 260 and 280 megabytes. That's as 8 bit at 800 dpi as
> Photoshop .psd files.
>
> Here's some which I had in a large format group exhibition in Springfield,
> MA in April.
>
> http://www.hemenway.com/VPC-show/
>
> Jim
>
> Ace wrote:
>
>> Jim
>>
>> <I shoot 11x14 Ektachrome and scan it on an 11x17 Epson 836XL with the
>> transparency top.>
>> How big are the files?
>>
>> Bob AZ
>>
>
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Raphael Bustin

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Since: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 45



(Msg. 36) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Tue, 23 May 2006 19:50:16 -0400, "Greg \"_\""
<grey_egg DeleteThis @greg_photo.com> wrote:

>Ok that said how would you look at the scan and evaluate wether
>it was in fact sharp as a result of that positioning versus the
>standard position found in the as is film holder placement.
>
>If there is a good online resource for this info will someone
>provide? Smile I hear Rafe tapping at his keyboard as I write this
>adding a new set of info to his site Very Happy


Who's got the time or energy for that?

All scanners have focus issues, and really the
only way to definitively avoid these is with wet
mounting, and even with wet-mounting, an
Epson flatbed is not going to hold up against
a drum scanner or a Nikon MF film scanner.

I've never seen a perfect film holder, either
for an optical enlarger or for a film scanner.

Vincent Oliver has scan snippets at photo-i
comparing LS-9000 vs. Epson V750 on MF film.

<www.photo-i.co.uk>

There's no telling from the snippets on my site
whether a given sample has optimal focus or not.
In one or two submitted samples, I suspect not.

For my own, I would say yes, they're "critically
focused." With the Nikon, you can generally
get critical focus at least on one point on the film.

Ie., the Nikon has a focus servo like a proper film
scanner should. I never claimed that the focus was
uniformly excellent from corner to corner.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
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Jim Hemenway

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Since: May 22, 2006
Posts: 3



(Msg. 37) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi Terry:

I guess that you missed my first post.

The film lies flat on the glass in the 11x17 Epson 836XL.

Another piece of glass lies on top of the film.

The transparency adapter, which replaces the usual flatbed top, is on
top of the glass.

I wrote in my first post that I do get some Newton's rings which are
very small. They look like dust spots and are easily removed with the
cloning and healing brush tools in Photoshop.

Jim

Terry Smith wrote:

> And just hoes does one prevent Newton rings with 11x14 film?
>
> The potential for film sag and film touching the glass must be HUGE...
>
>

>
>
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David J. Littleboy

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Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 1149



(Msg. 38) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Terry Smith" <TMSmith.RemoveThis@abriget.com> wrote:
> And just hoes does one prevent Newton rings with 11x14 film?
>
> The potential for film sag and film touching the glass must be HUGE...

Really. On the other hand, he's scanning at 800 ppi, which means DOF is a
lot deeper than at 4800 ppi.

So a reasonably stiff frame and some tape (with the frame high enough off
the glass at the edges to avoid contact) ought to work OK. I'd think.

Another idea would be to blow air over the top of the film during the scan
to provide lift in the center. (Rube Goldberg ain't got anything on me.)
Might require modifications to the scanner lid, though.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
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Terry Smith

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Since: Apr 24, 2006
Posts: 24



(Msg. 39) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

How does dpi affect DOF????



"David J. Littleboy" <davidjl DeleteThis @gol.com> wrote in message
news:e562bm$6m0$1@nnrp.gol.com...
>
> "Terry Smith" <TMSmith DeleteThis @abriget.com> wrote:
>> And just hoes does one prevent Newton rings with 11x14 film?
>>
>> The potential for film sag and film touching the glass must be HUGE...
>
> Really. On the other hand, he's scanning at 800 ppi, which means DOF is a
> lot deeper than at 4800 ppi.
>
> So a reasonably stiff frame and some tape (with the frame high enough off
> the glass at the edges to avoid contact) ought to work OK. I'd think.
>
> Another idea would be to blow air over the top of the film during the scan
> to provide lift in the center. (Rube Goldberg ain't got anything on me.)
> Might require modifications to the scanner lid, though.
>
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
>
>
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David J. Littleboy

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Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 1149



(Msg. 40) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jim Hemenway" <Jim.TakeThisOut@hemenway.com> wrote:
> Hi Bob:
>
> They vary between 260 and 280 megabytes. That's as 8 bit at 800 dpi as
> Photoshop .psd files.

Hehe. That's over 90MP and a 28 x 36" or so print at 300 ppi. Not too
shabby. Digital ain't getting anywhere close for a long long time.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
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David J. Littleboy

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Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 1149



(Msg. 41) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Terry Smith" <TMSmith DeleteThis @abriget.com> wrote:

> How does dpi affect DOF????

The higher the resolution the lower the range that will be in critical
focus.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
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Terry Smith

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Since: Apr 24, 2006
Posts: 24



(Msg. 42) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Thanks! That will help me a LOT. It appears that I've been scanning at WAY
too high a level for the size prints I typically do.

For example, I scan my 5x7 negs to print at 11x14. I doubt I need to scan
any higher than 800dpi to get an image to be optimal to print at 11x14 at
360dpi on my Epson 2400.

Make sense???



"David J. Littleboy" <davidjl.RemoveThis@gol.com> wrote in message
news:e562vp$6r6$1@nnrp.gol.com...
>
> "Terry Smith" <TMSmith.RemoveThis@abriget.com> wrote:
>
>> How does dpi affect DOF????
>
> The higher the resolution the lower the range that will be in critical
> focus.
>
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
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David J. Littleboy

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Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 1149



(Msg. 43) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Terry Smith" <TMSmith.RemoveThis@abriget.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks! That will help me a LOT. It appears that I've been scanning at
> WAY too high a level for the size prints I typically do.
>
> For example, I scan my 5x7 negs to print at 11x14. I doubt I need to scan
> any higher than 800dpi to get an image to be optimal to print at 11x14 at
> 360dpi on my Epson 2400.
>
> Make sense???

Exactly. However, scanners always produce softer images than the advertised
resolution. I downsample Nikon 8000 scans to 2400 ppi or so to produce
critically sharp digital files. So you _may_ need to overscan a bit. Try
scanning at 1200 ppi and downsampling to 800 ppi and see if the image is any
better than a straight scan at 800 ppi.

The good news is that lower resolution scans are often just as good as
higher resolution scans downsampled.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
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Terry Smith

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Since: Apr 24, 2006
Posts: 24



(Msg. 44) Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I'll try 1200. Thanks...

"David J. Littleboy" <davidjl DeleteThis @gol.com> wrote in message
news:e565ac$7e1$1@nnrp.gol.com...
>
> "Terry Smith" <TMSmith DeleteThis @abriget.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks! That will help me a LOT. It appears that I've been scanning at
>> WAY too high a level for the size prints I typically do.
>>
>> For example, I scan my 5x7 negs to print at 11x14. I doubt I need to
>> scan any higher than 800dpi to get an image to be optimal to print at
>> 11x14 at 360dpi on my Epson 2400.
>>
>> Make sense???
>
> Exactly. However, scanners always produce softer images than the
> advertised resolution. I downsample Nikon 8000 scans to 2400 ppi or so to
> produce critically sharp digital files. So you _may_ need to overscan a
> bit. Try scanning at 1200 ppi and downsampling to 800 ppi and see if the
> image is any better than a straight scan at 800 ppi.
>
> The good news is that lower resolution scans are often just as good as
> higher resolution scans downsampled.
>
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
>
>
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Bart van der Wolf

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Since: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 329



(Msg. 45) Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 1:30 am
Post subject: Re: Minimizing Moire patterns when scanning large format negatives??? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"David J. Littleboy" <davidjl.TakeThisOut@gol.com> wrote in message
news:e565ac$7e1$1@nnrp.gol.com...
SNIP
> The good news is that lower resolution scans are often just as good
> as higher resolution scans downsampled.

There is a significant difference however.

Lower (below native scanner sampling) resolution scans resemble point
sampling, which leads to high MTF but also leads to undersampling
which increases grain-aliasing.

Down-sampling on the other hand, if done properly (!), uses all
extracted detail with its inherently lower grain-aliasing to arrive at
a better solution which also sharpens better. The results get even
better after some noise/graininess reduction (NeatImage/NoiseNinja)
before down-sampling.

If the downsampling is not done properly, it'll produce aliasing
artifacts which may be mistaken for resolution, and it increases
graininess. That however is something that can be avoided by using
proper downsampling methods:
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/foto/down_sample/down_sample.htm>
and
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/foto/down_sample/example1.htm>

Bart
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