Welcome to DigiForumz.com!
FAQFAQ    SearchSearch      ProfileProfile    Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in

The Megapixel Race

 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
   Digital Camera Community (Home) -> General Discussions RSS
Next:  Photo/ Video editing softwares  
Author Message
David J Taylor

External


Since: Mar 24, 2006
Posts: 680



(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:55 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

Keith wrote:
> David J Taylor
> <david-taylor.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> wrote:
>
>> Is it fundamental that the larger sensor requires such a bulky
>> arrangement? And the 4/3 sensor seems lumbered with a large lens
>> mount, making miniature, near-SLR quality cameras difficult.....
>
> It's not lumbered with a large lens mount - it was designed that way
> to make it easier to design 'telecentric' lenses where the light hits
> the sensor at right angles right up to the corners. This is why
> lagacy glass on 35mm frame sensors deteriorate towards the edges of
> the frame - especially (or mostly) on wide angles. The Oly 7-14mm
> zoom for example gets rave reviews for performance in this area.

OK, I said "seems lumbered" - that's an impression - thanks for pointing
out that's by design rather than by accident. However, does this prevent
it from offering as compact a camera and lens as the "half sized" sensor
might otherwise allow? With a sensor sized half of that of the 35mm
standard, I had been hoping to see a considerable reduction in size and
weight of systems (OK, perhaps not to half the size, and one eighth the
volume and weight!), but it seems that some APS-C DSLRs offer systems
which are just as compact....

David

 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
ASAAR

External


Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 3972



(Msg. 17) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:41 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:56:32 GMT, David J Taylor wrote:

> OK, I said "seems lumbered" - that's an impression - thanks for pointing
> out that's by design rather than by accident. However, does this prevent
> it from offering as compact a camera and lens as the "half sized" sensor
> might otherwise allow? With a sensor sized half of that of the 35mm
> standard, I had been hoping to see a considerable reduction in size and
> weight of systems (OK, perhaps not to half the size, and one eighth the
> volume and weight!), but it seems that some APS-C DSLRs offer systems
> which are just as compact....

They're getting progressively smaller. Here are weights and sizes
of some of the Canon and Olympus cameras. All weights include
batteries and dimensions are in mm.

E-300: 624g 147 x 85 x 64
350D: 540g 127 x 94 x 64
E-500: 479g 130 x 95 x 66
E-400: 420g 130 x 91 x 53
G7: 380g 106 x 72 x 43

So you can see that the E-400 (only available in Europe) is
significantly lighter than Canon's 350D, which is known to be a very
light DSLR, and only slightly heavier than the Powershot G7. The
sizes aren't dramatically smaller, but I'm not sure many
photographers would want a DSLR much smaller than the E-400. By way
of comparison, my Fuji, which I've described before as a P&S that
resembles a DSLR in appearance but is far smaller. It easily fits
in the small pockets of my lightweight jackets and checks in at:

S5100: 480g 113 x 81 x 79

This may be a bit misleading, as the Fuji's size includes its
fixed 10x zoom lens, and the weight would be reduced to close to
400g if lithium AA batteries were used instead of alkalines. You're
very right about not expecting 4/3 cameras to be 1/8th the weight,
since 1/8th the weight of the 350D is only 67 grams, much less than
the weight of even ultracompact cameras.

 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
David J Taylor

External


Since: Mar 24, 2006
Posts: 680



(Msg. 18) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

ASAAR wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:56:32 GMT, David J Taylor wrote:
>
>> OK, I said "seems lumbered" - that's an impression - thanks for
>> pointing out that's by design rather than by accident. However,
>> does this prevent it from offering as compact a camera and lens as
>> the "half sized" sensor might otherwise allow? With a sensor sized
>> half of that of the 35mm standard, I had been hoping to see a
>> considerable reduction in size and weight of systems (OK, perhaps
>> not to half the size, and one eighth the volume and weight!), but it
>> seems that some APS-C DSLRs offer systems which are just as
>> compact....
>
> They're getting progressively smaller. Here are weights and sizes
> of some of the Canon and Olympus cameras. All weights include
> batteries and dimensions are in mm.
>
> E-300: 624g 147 x 85 x 64
> 350D: 540g 127 x 94 x 64
> E-500: 479g 130 x 95 x 66
> E-400: 420g 130 x 91 x 53
> G7: 380g 106 x 72 x 43
>
> So you can see that the E-400 (only available in Europe) is
> significantly lighter than Canon's 350D, which is known to be a very
> light DSLR, and only slightly heavier than the Powershot G7. The
> sizes aren't dramatically smaller, but I'm not sure many
> photographers would want a DSLR much smaller than the E-400. By way
> of comparison, my Fuji, which I've described before as a P&S that
> resembles a DSLR in appearance but is far smaller. It easily fits
> in the small pockets of my lightweight jackets and checks in at:
>
> S5100: 480g 113 x 81 x 79
>
> This may be a bit misleading, as the Fuji's size includes its
> fixed 10x zoom lens, and the weight would be reduced to close to
> 400g if lithium AA batteries were used instead of alkalines. You're
> very right about not expecting 4/3 cameras to be 1/8th the weight,
> since 1/8th the weight of the 350D is only 67 grams, much less than
> the weight of even ultracompact cameras.

Thanks for that detailed chart - interesting reading!

However, I was really meaning the complete system, including the lens,
rather than the camera body alone. How does the 4/3 system compare to the
APS-C system with say, a wide-angle (24 - 28mm equivalent) or a 400mm
equivalent image stabilised lens? [Meaning a 200mm lens on the 4/3 system
and a ~250mm lens on the APS-C]. Does the 4/3 system show a significant
size and weight benefit?

David
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Rich

External


Since: Mar 21, 2006
Posts: 241



(Msg. 19) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:15 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

David J Taylor wrote:
> ASAAR wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:56:32 GMT, David J Taylor wrote:
> >
> >> OK, I said "seems lumbered" - that's an impression - thanks for
> >> pointing out that's by design rather than by accident. However,
> >> does this prevent it from offering as compact a camera and lens as
> >> the "half sized" sensor might otherwise allow? With a sensor sized
> >> half of that of the 35mm standard, I had been hoping to see a
> >> considerable reduction in size and weight of systems (OK, perhaps
> >> not to half the size, and one eighth the volume and weight!), but it
> >> seems that some APS-C DSLRs offer systems which are just as
> >> compact....
> >
> > They're getting progressively smaller. Here are weights and sizes
> > of some of the Canon and Olympus cameras. All weights include
> > batteries and dimensions are in mm.
> >
> > E-300: 624g 147 x 85 x 64
> > 350D: 540g 127 x 94 x 64
> > E-500: 479g 130 x 95 x 66
> > E-400: 420g 130 x 91 x 53
> > G7: 380g 106 x 72 x 43
> >
> > So you can see that the E-400 (only available in Europe) is
> > significantly lighter than Canon's 350D, which is known to be a very
> > light DSLR, and only slightly heavier than the Powershot G7. The
> > sizes aren't dramatically smaller, but I'm not sure many
> > photographers would want a DSLR much smaller than the E-400. By way
> > of comparison, my Fuji, which I've described before as a P&S that
> > resembles a DSLR in appearance but is far smaller. It easily fits
> > in the small pockets of my lightweight jackets and checks in at:
> >
> > S5100: 480g 113 x 81 x 79
> >
> > This may be a bit misleading, as the Fuji's size includes its
> > fixed 10x zoom lens, and the weight would be reduced to close to
> > 400g if lithium AA batteries were used instead of alkalines. You're
> > very right about not expecting 4/3 cameras to be 1/8th the weight,
> > since 1/8th the weight of the 350D is only 67 grams, much less than
> > the weight of even ultracompact cameras.
>
> Thanks for that detailed chart - interesting reading!
>
> However, I was really meaning the complete system, including the lens,
> rather than the camera body alone. How does the 4/3 system compare to the
> APS-C system with say, a wide-angle (24 - 28mm equivalent) or a 400mm
> equivalent image stabilised lens? [Meaning a 200mm lens on the 4/3 system
> and a ~250mm lens on the APS-C]. Does the 4/3 system show a significant
> size and weight benefit?
>
> David

Lets say you want the same angle of coverage (zoom factor if you will)
with an APS-C and a 4/3rd system. For the APS-C you get a 400mm f2.8
lens. Now, for the 4/3rds, all you need is a 300mm f2.8 to achieve the
same pixel coverage for a given area of the scene.
The 400mm lens is going to weigh at least 50% more (likely more) and be
about 4" longer.
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Scott W

External


Since: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 704



(Msg. 20) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:02 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Greg "_" wrote:
> In article <453eb2f5$0$7689$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>,
> "Kinon O'cann" <still RemoveThis @bowser.org> wrote:
> >
> > You know what amazes me? Look back to when film photography was young, and
> > you see 8x10 and 4x5 inch film. As we all know, cameras got smaller, and
> > finally, sort of, bottomed out with 35mm as a mass-standard. Now it's the
> > opposite; we've started smaller and are getting larger, increasing picture
> > quality instead of decreasing and some people complain. Why?
>
> Because at this point and no point in the near future will digital
> single image capture equal the resolution of an 8x10 or 4x5 camera,
> however the small digital imagers some call cameras will quite possibly
> cause the films available for these LF cameras to no longer be sold well
> before a suitable replacement of equal resolution is ever made available.

In that case you will just have to learn how to stitch, come to the
dark side Smile


Scott
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Kinon O'cann

External


Since: Oct 23, 2006
Posts: 11



(Msg. 21) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"rafe b" <rafeb.DeleteThis@foobar.com> wrote in message
news:B-KdnQOV9v6BoaDYnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> "Kinon O'cann" <still.DeleteThis@bowser.org> wrote in message
> news:453d364e$0$7692$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
>
>> By the way, human hearing can detect differences in second and third
>> order harmonics. If we couldn't, middle C would sound exactly the same on
>> every instrument.
>
>
> 2nd and 3rd harmonics of what fundamental?
> Most adult humans still can't hear diddly above 5-10KHz.
>
> Even so -- bmoag's analogy is still flawed.
>
> For any given technology, more sensor area is
> always a good thing for image quality.
>
> It's all about catching light. The more the better.
>
> And yes of course, big sensor = bigger lens =
> bigger, heavier camera, etc.

You know what amazes me? Look back to when film photography was young, and
you see 8x10 and 4x5 inch film. As we all know, cameras got smaller, and
finally, sort of, bottomed out with 35mm as a mass-standard. Now it's the
opposite; we've started smaller and are getting larger, increasing picture
quality instead of decreasing and some people complain. Why?

Not that I want to continue the audio portion of our discussion, but my last
hearing test showed me viable up to 15Khz. And a recording that tops out
there doesn't sound nearly as good as one that tops out at 20Khz. Why?

I think the flaw is in the measuring technique and our ability to measure
our sense of hearing.

>
>
> rafe b
> www.terrapinphoto.com
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Greg "_"

External


Since: May 22, 2006
Posts: 53



(Msg. 22) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:08 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <453eb2f5$0$7689$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>,
"Kinon O'cann" <still.RemoveThis@bowser.org> wrote:
>
> You know what amazes me? Look back to when film photography was young, and
> you see 8x10 and 4x5 inch film. As we all know, cameras got smaller, and
> finally, sort of, bottomed out with 35mm as a mass-standard. Now it's the
> opposite; we've started smaller and are getting larger, increasing picture
> quality instead of decreasing and some people complain. Why?

Because at this point and no point in the near future will digital
single image capture equal the resolution of an 8x10 or 4x5 camera,
however the small digital imagers some call cameras will quite possibly
cause the films available for these LF cameras to no longer be sold well
before a suitable replacement of equal resolution is ever made available.
--
Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.

www.gregblankphoto.com
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
John McWilliams

External


Since: Aug 25, 2005
Posts: 1482



(Msg. 23) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Scott W wrote:
> Greg "_" wrote:
>> In article <453eb2f5$0$7689$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>,
>> "Kinon O'cann" <still.RemoveThis@bowser.org> wrote:
>>> You know what amazes me? Look back to when film photography was young, and
>>> you see 8x10 and 4x5 inch film. As we all know, cameras got smaller, and
>>> finally, sort of, bottomed out with 35mm as a mass-standard. Now it's the
>>> opposite; we've started smaller and are getting larger, increasing picture
>>> quality instead of decreasing and some people complain. Why?
>> Because at this point and no point in the near future will digital
>> single image capture equal the resolution of an 8x10 or 4x5 camera,
>> however the small digital imagers some call cameras will quite possibly
>> cause the films available for these LF cameras to no longer be sold well
>> before a suitable replacement of equal resolution is ever made available.
>
> In that case you will just have to learn how to stitch, come to the
> dark side Smile

Holy Cow! You actually understood the above paragraph (=sentence)??

*If* I understand it, I disagree: At some point in the future, there
will be a digital camera (not limited to military) that will out-resolve
an 8 x10.

--

John McWilliams
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Scott W

External


Since: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 704



(Msg. 24) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:47 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

John McWilliams wrote:

> Holy Cow! You actually understood the above paragraph (=sentence)??
>
> *If* I understand it, I disagree: At some point in the future, there
> will be a digital camera (not limited to military) that will out-resolve
> an 8 x10.
But will it be in the near enough future that LF film will not already
be gone?
I think it is going to be a long time before we see really affordable
digital cameras that are good for 80 to 100 MP.

Scott
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
David J Taylor

External


Since: Mar 24, 2006
Posts: 680



(Msg. 25) Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Rich wrote:
[]
> Lets say you want the same angle of coverage (zoom factor if you will)
> with an APS-C and a 4/3rd system. For the APS-C you get a 400mm f2.8
> lens. Now, for the 4/3rds, all you need is a 300mm f2.8 to achieve
> the same pixel coverage for a given area of the scene.
> The 400mm lens is going to weigh at least 50% more (likely more) and
> be about 4" longer.

In theory, yes. But is that reflected in actual available products?

(And some might argue that you need a 300mm f/2.4 lens for the same light
gathering power, but I won't as I allow a smaller sensor to be less
sensitive....).

David
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Alfred Molon

External


Since: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 48



(Msg. 26) Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:27 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <grey_egg-EE731F.21081024102006.DeleteThis@news.isp.giganews.com>, "Greg
\"_\"" <grey_egg.DeleteThis@greg_photo.com> says...

> Because at this point and no point in the near future will digital
> single image capture equal the resolution of an 8x10 or 4x5 camera,
> however the small digital imagers some call cameras will quite possibly
> cause the films available for these LF cameras to no longer be sold well
> before a suitable replacement of equal resolution is ever made available.

Already now there is a scanning camera which in one second captures a
160 MP image.
--

Alfred Molon
------------------------------
Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E300, E330, E400 and E500 forum at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
Olympus E330 resource - http://myolympus.org/E330/
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Greg "_"

External


Since: May 22, 2006
Posts: 53



(Msg. 27) Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:55 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <8o6dncDnJJcScqPYnZ2dnUVZ_rSdnZ2d RemoveThis @comcast.com>,
John McWilliams <jpmcw RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> Scott W wrote:
> > Greg "_" wrote:
> >> In article <453eb2f5$0$7689$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>,
> >> "Kinon O'cann" <still RemoveThis @bowser.org> wrote:
> >>> You know what amazes me? Look back to when film photography was young, and
> >>> you see 8x10 and 4x5 inch film. As we all know, cameras got smaller, and
> >>> finally, sort of, bottomed out with 35mm as a mass-standard. Now it's the
> >>> opposite; we've started smaller and are getting larger, increasing picture
> >>> quality instead of decreasing and some people complain. Why?
> >> Because at this point and no point in the near future will digital
> >> single image capture equal the resolution of an 8x10 or 4x5 camera,
> >> however the small digital imagers some call cameras will quite possibly
> >> cause the films available for these LF cameras to no longer be sold well
> >> before a suitable replacement of equal resolution is ever made available.
> >
> > In that case you will just have to learn how to stitch, come to the
> > dark side Smile
>
> Holy Cow! You actually understood the above paragraph (=sentence)??
>
> *If* I understand it, I disagree: At some point in the future, there
> will be a digital camera (not limited to military) that will out-resolve
> an 8 x10.
>
> --
>
> John McWilliams

Dreamer.
--
Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.

www.gregblankphoto.com
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Greg "_"

External


Since: May 22, 2006
Posts: 53



(Msg. 28) Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <MPG.1fa91442988d9b1698b1a5.DeleteThis@news.supernews.com>,
Alfred Molon <alfredDELETE_molon.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <grey_egg-EE731F.21081024102006.DeleteThis@news.isp.giganews.com>, "Greg
> \"_\"" <grey_egg.DeleteThis@greg_photo.com> says...
>
> > Because at this point and no point in the near future will digital
> > single image capture equal the resolution of an 8x10 or 4x5 camera,
> > however the small digital imagers some call cameras will quite possibly
> > cause the films available for these LF cameras to no longer be sold well
> > before a suitable replacement of equal resolution is ever made available.
>
> Already now there is a scanning camera which in one second captures a
> 160 MP image.

MP do not equate to resolving power.
--
Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.

www.gregblankphoto.com
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Bill Funk

External


Since: Aug 09, 2005
Posts: 1536



(Msg. 29) Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:38 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 24 Oct 2006 22:47:18 -0700, "Scott W" <biphoto RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>John McWilliams wrote:
>
>> Holy Cow! You actually understood the above paragraph (=sentence)??
>>
>> *If* I understand it, I disagree: At some point in the future, there
>> will be a digital camera (not limited to military) that will out-resolve
>> an 8 x10.
>But will it be in the near enough future that LF film will not already
>be gone?
>I think it is going to be a long time before we see really affordable
>digital cameras that are good for 80 to 100 MP.
>
>Scott

Why would LF film be gone, if it weren't being replaced by digital?
Those who shoot LF are doing it because LF offers what they want. Why
would it disappear before something came along that offers the same
thing?
--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Scott W

External


Since: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 704



(Msg. 30) Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:01 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Bill Funk wrote:
>
> Why would LF film be gone, if it weren't being replaced by digital?
> Those who shoot LF are doing it because LF offers what they want. Why
> would it disappear before something came along that offers the same
> thing?

Who knows how long it will be around? LF it already pretty much of a
niche market and as such might be one of the product lines that film
produces decide they can trim out from their film offering without
impacting the bottom line much. And of course it is not likely to be a
matter of one day LF film is available and the next it is not, more
like the selection shrinks over time.

Scott
 >> Stay informed about: The Megapixel Race 
Back to top
Login to vote
Display posts from previous:   
Related Topics:
Are 22 megapixel APS-C sensors realistic? - Question for those who are more technically inclined than I am... What is the likelihood that Canon will eventually mass produce APS-C (ie 1.6x crop) sensors that can handle 16 megapixels? 22 megapixels? Or will there come a point where it's no longer...
   Digital Camera Community (Home) -> General Discussions All times are: Pacific Time (US & Canada) (change)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Page 2 of 7

 
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



[ Contact us | Terms of Service/Privacy Policy ]