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The Megapixel Race

 
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SimonLW

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Since: Sep 14, 2005
Posts: 187



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:50 am
Post subject: The Megapixel Race
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

The manufacturers STILL keep pushing the megapixel count higher and higher.
After reading what I'd consider an unfavorable review of yet another 10mp
compact camera, I'd say they went beyond the current limits. Perhaps the
average camera shopping consumer still gets wrapped up in the numbers game,
but many enthusiasts will be wary of the less then stellar image
performance.

I say its time for the sensor manufacturers to research the development of
larger sensors for compacts. Not necessarily APS size, but 1/2 APS size
(quarter area), or at least use the 2/3 size again. This may impact the size
of the super small cameras, but I'd wager that there are many users who want
a good performing camera who don't want to lug a SLR and a bag of lenses
around.

The SLR format is reaching a limitation of a different kind. The APS sensors
of 10-12 megapixels are capable of resolving nearly 90 lines per mm. This is
beyond the range of nearly any consumer zoom and even some high end zooms
and a few primes. I wonder if they will push APS sensors beyond 12mp just to
play the numbers game or will full frame be the next step.

The next few years of digital will be interesting!

-S

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Kinon O'Cann

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Since: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 152



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:12 am
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Agreed, the latest crop of small digitals are a step down in picture
quality. Lots more noise, loss of detail, and way too much post processing.
I was going to get a smaller cam to use as an adjunct to my SLR, but forget
it, the picture quality just plain sucks. I had hoped that Panasonic would
step up and improve the picture quality of the LX1, but all they did was
stuff more pixels into the LX2 and it's OK, but still not good enough. For
now, I'll just lug the SLR.

Good comment about the APS sized sensors. I think it's only a matter of time
before they all realize that larger sensors are a reality, given the
physical limitations of sensor technology. Nikon, are you listening?

"SimonLW" <nospam.DeleteThis@donet.com> wrote in message
news:453c7b15$1_3@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> The manufacturers STILL keep pushing the megapixel count higher and
> higher. After reading what I'd consider an unfavorable review of yet
> another 10mp compact camera, I'd say they went beyond the current limits.
> Perhaps the average camera shopping consumer still gets wrapped up in the
> numbers game, but many enthusiasts will be wary of the less then stellar
> image performance.
>
> I say its time for the sensor manufacturers to research the development of
> larger sensors for compacts. Not necessarily APS size, but 1/2 APS size
> (quarter area), or at least use the 2/3 size again. This may impact the
> size of the super small cameras, but I'd wager that there are many users
> who want a good performing camera who don't want to lug a SLR and a bag of
> lenses around.
>
> The SLR format is reaching a limitation of a different kind. The APS
> sensors of 10-12 megapixels are capable of resolving nearly 90 lines per
> mm. This is beyond the range of nearly any consumer zoom and even some
> high end zooms and a few primes. I wonder if they will push APS sensors
> beyond 12mp just to play the numbers game or will full frame be the next
> step.
>
> The next few years of digital will be interesting!
>
> -S
>

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timeOday

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Since: Nov 17, 2005
Posts: 143



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:54 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

SimonLW wrote:

> I say its time for the sensor manufacturers to research the development of
> larger sensors for compacts. Not necessarily APS size, but 1/2 APS size
> (quarter area), or at least use the 2/3 size again. This may impact the size
> of the super small cameras, but I'd wager that there are many users who want
> a good performing camera who don't want to lug a SLR and a bag of lenses
> around.

Can they really enlarge the sensor without growing the rest of the
camera (including expensive, heavy lenses) too? And keep the same range
of focal lengths?

I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if compacts held up at 8MP or so,
just as laser printers stopped at 600 or 1200 dpi. At 8MP you can
already do a fair bit of cropping and still get good resolution.
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bmoag

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Since: Oct 26, 2005
Posts: 309



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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If a recording contains sound beyond the range of human hearing or the
ability of speakers to reproduce that sound is it a better recording than
one which remains within the realm of the audible and reproducible?
This is the argument about full size and APS size sensors even at this
infant stage of digital photography.
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rafe b

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Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 124



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:55 pm
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"bmoag" <aetoo.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ju5%g.23069$7I1.14605@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

> If a recording contains sound beyond the range of human hearing or the
> ability of speakers to reproduce that sound is it a better recording than
> one which remains within the realm of the audible and reproducible?
> This is the argument about full size and APS size sensors even at this
> infant stage of digital photography.


I don't think this is a valid analogy. The benefits of
full-frame sensors are clearly visible. There's nothing
subtle about it, really.

It was like that with film -- more film area yields a
better image, always (all else being equal.) There's
no reason it should be different with silicon sensors.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
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Paul Rubin

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Since: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 1029



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"bmoag" <aetoo DeleteThis @hotmail.com> writes:
> If a recording contains sound beyond the range of human hearing or the
> ability of speakers to reproduce that sound is it a better recording than
> one which remains within the realm of the audible and reproducible?
> This is the argument about full size and APS size sensors even at this
> infant stage of digital photography.

Not at all; full size vs APS size is no different than 35mm vs medium
format.
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Cynicor

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Since: Oct 14, 2006
Posts: 22



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

bmoag wrote:
> If a recording contains sound beyond the range of human hearing or the
> ability of speakers to reproduce that sound is it a better recording than
> one which remains within the realm of the audible and reproducible?
> This is the argument about full size and APS size sensors even at this
> infant stage of digital photography.

Yes, because you can use the higher-quality recording to send secret
messages to your dogs.
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Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

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Since: Apr 27, 2006
Posts: 85



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Ο "SimonLW" <nospam DeleteThis @donet.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:453c7b15$1_3@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> The manufacturers STILL keep pushing the megapixel count higher and
higher.
> After reading what I'd consider an unfavorable review of yet another 10mp
> compact camera, I'd say they went beyond the current limits. Perhaps the
> average camera shopping consumer still gets wrapped up in the numbers
game,
> but many enthusiasts will be wary of the less then stellar image
> performance.
>
> I say its time for the sensor manufacturers to research the development of
> larger sensors for compacts. Not necessarily APS size, but 1/2 APS size
> (quarter area), or at least use the 2/3 size again. This may impact the
size
> of the super small cameras, but I'd wager that there are many users who
want
> a good performing camera who don't want to lug a SLR and a bag of lenses
> around.
>
> The SLR format is reaching a limitation of a different kind. The APS
sensors
> of 10-12 megapixels are capable of resolving nearly 90 lines per mm. This
is
> beyond the range of nearly any consumer zoom and even some high end zooms
> and a few primes. I wonder if they will push APS sensors beyond 12mp just
to
> play the numbers game or will full frame be the next step.
>
> The next few years of digital will be interesting!
>
I agree.The megapixel doctrine looks like the GHz race between computer
processors-or even the GB race in hard disks....


--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
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Kinon O'cann

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Since: Oct 23, 2006
Posts: 11



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Bad analogy. While including frequecies that are, supposedly, beyond the
range of human hearing is questionable, the quality difference between an
image from my 5D and the Panasonic LX2 is, well, kind of noticeable. The LX2
is a wonderful camera body in search of a good sensor. They got it all right
except the important part. However, if you can live at ISO 100 in good
light, it's OK.

By the way, human hearing can detect differences in second and third order
harmonics. If we couldn't, middle C would sound exactly the same on every
instrument.

"bmoag" <aetoo.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ju5%g.23069$7I1.14605@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> If a recording contains sound beyond the range of human hearing or the
> ability of speakers to reproduce that sound is it a better recording than
> one which remains within the realm of the audible and reproducible?
> This is the argument about full size and APS size sensors even at this
> infant stage of digital photography.
>
>
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rafe b

External


Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 124



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: The Megapixel Race [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Kinon O'cann" <still.TakeThisOut@bowser.org> wrote in message
news:453d364e$0$7692$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...

> By the way, human hearing can detect differences in second and third order
> harmonics. If we couldn't, middle C would sound exactly the same on every
> instrument.


2nd and 3rd harmonics of what fundamental?
Most adult humans still can't hear diddly above 5-10KHz.

Even so -- bmoag's analogy is still flawed.

For any given technology, more sensor area is
always a good thing for image quality.

It's all about catching light. The more the better.

And yes of course, big sensor = bigger lens =
bigger, heavier camera, etc.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
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Richard Kettlewell

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Since: May 26, 2006
Posts: 24



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:40 pm
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Alfred Molon <alfredDELETE_molon.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> writes:
> Tzortzakakis Dimitrios says...

>> I agree.The megapixel doctrine looks like the GHz race between computer
>> processors-or even the GB race in hard disks....
>
> Sorry, but you can't have enough processing power or disk space in your
> computer. Not for instance if do large panoramas which take plenty of
> disk space and require long processing times.

Disk space fair enough, but concentrating on the headline MHz/GHz
figure to the exclusion of other factors can indeed be misleading.

--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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Alfred Molon

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Since: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 48



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:00 pm
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In article <ehis7b$ql0$1@mouse.otenet.gr>, Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
says...

> I agree.The megapixel doctrine looks like the GHz race between computer
> processors-or even the GB race in hard disks....

Sorry, but you can't have enough processing power or disk space in your
computer. Not for instance if do large panoramas which take plenty of
disk space and require long processing times.
--

Alfred Molon
http://www.molon.de - Photos of Asia, Africa and Europe
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Rich

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Since: Mar 21, 2006
Posts: 241



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:46 pm
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Kinon O'cann wrote:
> Bad analogy. While including frequecies that are, supposedly, beyond the
> range of human hearing is questionable, the quality difference between an
> image from my 5D and the Panasonic LX2 is, well, kind of noticeable. The LX2
> is a wonderful camera body in search of a good sensor. They got it all right
> except the important part. However, if you can live at ISO 100 in good
> light, it's OK.
>
> By the way, human hearing can detect differences in second and third order
> harmonics. If we couldn't, middle C would sound exactly the same on every
> instrument.
>

Why bring high end audio into the discussion? It just invites people
involved in that fringe to tangent whatever the original post was
about. Now, do you get a sensor whose internal wiring is 99.99% copper
or go with silver? Smile
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Pierre Vandevennne

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Since: Sep 21, 2006
Posts: 6



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:55 pm
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"bmoag" <aetoo.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ju5%g.23069$7I1.14605@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net:

> If a recording contains sound beyond the range of human hearing or the
> ability of speakers to reproduce that sound is it a better recording
> than one which remains within the realm of the audible and
> reproducible? This is the argument about full size and APS size
> sensors even at this infant stage of digital photography.

That reasonning would be valid if sensors were in their infancy. They are
not. Read noise will improve a bit, yes. Even if the handling of thermal
noise was optimal, even when the most basic digicam will have perfect
quantum efficiency, bigger pixels will still have a better s/n ratio.

Pierre/PhotoRescue
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Keith

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Since: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 29



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:55 am
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David J Taylor
<david-taylor.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> wrote:

> Is it fundamental that the larger sensor requires such a bulky
> arrangement? And the 4/3 sensor seems lumbered with a large lens mount,
> making miniature, near-SLR quality cameras difficult.....

It's not lumbered with a large lens mount - it was designed that way to
make it easier to design 'telecentric' lenses where the light hits the
sensor at right angles right up to the corners. This is why lagacy glass
on 35mm frame sensors deteriorate towards the edges of the frame -
especially (or mostly) on wide angles. The Oly 7-14mm zoom for example
gets rave reviews for performance in this area.
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