Longevity of inkjet Matte papers?

I believe it is very difficult to draw any valid conclusions about any
ink, paper or printer without looking at all three together. A paper that
works well in one printer - ink combination may not work well in another.
Likewise for other combinations of the three factors.

Now for longevity, I would say that the two meaningful factors are ink
and paper, but some combinations of those two with different printers may
give unacceptable quality results.

However for fading, you need to factor in the environment as the third
factor. What combinations work well in dark storage, may do poor in light
for example. Different contaminates in the air can also make a difference.

Having said that, I would not totally ignore the experience or test
results you may see. Just remember that different testing may lead to
different results. It is a complex subject.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4548f119@news.meer.net...
> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.
>
> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters. Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.
>
> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters. Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.
>
Epson HWM and Archival Matte / Enhanced Matte contain optical
brighteners which degrade over time / exposure, causing a yellowing
effect (the paper becomes less "white" looking when the OB effect is
expired. Read the fine print on the Wilhelm reports, and this is explained.
A matte finish art paper without OB (Ultrasmooth Fine Art)may be better
for long term display for that reason, but it's also expensive.

The dye ink fading effect you see in your kitchen is probably gas
fading. Wilhelm are testing for this with many standard paper/ink
combinations now. It's a problem far less likely to affect pigment
inks. Epson now list "gas fading resistance" on their Japanese website
for their new dye inksets. I don't know the test method they use, but
display rating is probably for a much less severe environment than a
kitchen.

Heavyweight Matte is probably okay with Canon Dye inks. HWM wasn't
designed for pigment printers - it was for Epson dye printers. In fact
it doesn't work very well (poor saturation/resolution) with the pigment
printers, even though it's included in the driver paper selection..
But, if longevity is an issue, you are probably better using Canon paper
- if some display permanence test data is available. It will probably
have quite poor gas-fading resistance, so would need to be framed behind
glass.

As a general rule, if you want longevity on true matte papers, you need
to use pigment inks.
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

In article <4548f119.RemoveThis@news.meer.net>, Bill Tuthill <ccreekin.RemoveThis@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.
>
> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters. Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.

Prior to acquiring my R1800 I used a 1280 with dye inks, I have
brochures I made on HWM double sided paper that still look good several
years later. All my Epson HWM prints using dyes still look good. But
many on other paper have varying results. Some would have been terrible
if I had actually sold the prints. Some of the glossy papers displayed
showed signs of out gassing several months after displaying matted
behind glass.

So far using the pigment inks of the R1800 I have been very pleased
with color vibrance.
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely,
the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great
and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire
at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920.


Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.

www.gregblankphoto.com
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

"Greg" <grey_egg RemoveThis @greg_photo.com> wrote:
>
> Prior to acquiring my R1800 I used a 1280 with dye inks, I have
> brochures I made on HWM double sided paper that still look good several
> years later. All my Epson HWM prints using dyes still look good.

That's a good recommendation, and is what I have heard about Epson HWM,
despite comments by Frederick and RafeB about optical brighteners.
Canon Matte Photo Paper probably has optical brighteners also, given
the marketing blurb about it being "bright white." It costs a bit less
than Epson HWM but is .5 mil lighter weight.

I'm assuming that Canon dye-based inks are very similar to Epson's.
Hopefully that's a valid assumption.

> But many on other paper have varying results. Some would have been terrible
> if I had actually sold the prints. Some of the glossy papers displayed
> showed signs of out gassing several months after displaying matted
> behind glass.

Out-gassing of cyan? I don't know if sunlight affects it, but as I said,
Epson (glossy) Photo Paper lasts much longer under fluorescent light,
which maybe doesn't exacerbate outgassing. In either location, cyan is
the first color to go, but about 10x as rapidly in filtered sunlight.

> So far using the pigment inks of the R1800 I have been very pleased
> with color vibrance.

Have you exposed any of these to sunlight? I'm curious, although it's a
moot point, because we already committed to the Canon printer/FAX/copier
for convenience reasons. When I want long lasting, I go to Longs Drugs
and have them make a Frontier print on Fuji Crystal Archive.
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> "Greg" <grey_egg DeleteThis @greg_photo.com> wrote:
>> Prior to acquiring my R1800 I used a 1280 with dye inks, I have
>> brochures I made on HWM double sided paper that still look good several
>> years later. All my Epson HWM prints using dyes still look good.
>
> That's a good recommendation, and is what I have heard about Epson HWM,
> despite comments by Frederick and RafeB about optical brighteners.
> Canon Matte Photo Paper probably has optical brighteners also, given
> the marketing blurb about it being "bright white." It costs a bit less
> than Epson HWM but is .5 mil lighter weight.
>
Don't get me wrong on this. You will see a noticeable loss of OB
activity and subsequent yellow shift in the apparent colour of the base
paper after a relatively short period of indirect daylight exposure.
But a far as "looking good" goes, they can still be fine - and because
the loss of OB means that the paper colour is shifted doesn't mean that
the paper will continue to get yellower at the same rate.
I am looking at two prints right now - one printed on Enhanced Matte
about 6 months ago, one very new - and guaranteed out of the same box of
50 a3+ sheets. Comparing the border of the prints is like chalk and
cheese. However the printed area of the "yellowed" print still looks
fine, and probably will still do so in 100 years.
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Unfortunately, there is really no hard and fast rule when it comes to
papers. The paper's construction, as well as the ink type are critical
to the fade resistance.

For example, using Epson dye inks I have some Tektronix inkjet paper
that was made probably over 12 years ago. It was designed for their
inkjet plotters. It came in rolls but unfortunately it is rather thin,
but whatever mordants and other technologies they used with it, the
images I printed on it with literally first generation Epson color inks
have stood up to fairly harsh indoor lighting for 8-10 years now with
only moderate loss of yellow and cyan. On the other hand, using the
same inks, an older HP matte paper (designed for the original inkjet
printer/plotter models) faded badly in a matter of months in bright
fluorescent exposure. The older Epson "photo quality" matte paper
didn't fare a heck of a lot better (maybe twice as long), however, the
"heavy weight archival matte" has don't much better. The older Epson
photo a medium gloss paper lost cyans almost completely with exposure to
bright indoor lighting in a matter of a couple of years.

Sadly, other than real or accelerated testing, I don't think one can
make any generalization about any inkjet paper, other than to say that
swellable polymer papers tend to give longer lasting results than
microporous.

Art



Bill Tuthill wrote:

> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.
>
> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters. Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Greg <grey_egg RemoveThis @greg_photo.com> wrote:
>
> Some of the glossy Epson papers ... showed signs of out gassing
> several months after displaying matted behind glass.

Why anybody would go to the trouble of matting and glass-frame mounting
a dye-based Epson inkjet print, is beyond my comprehension. I hope you
don't take that as a personal insult.

Pigment-based Epson prints could be a different matter, but I suspect
they react poorly to being placed in direct sunlight, unlike RA-4 prints
(photo paper) which can survive many years in sunlight without fading.

Note how Wilhelm tests under fluorescent light, the best possible condition
for inkjet longevity, perhaps because he's paid by inkjet manufacturers.
My personal experience says Epson 1280 prints on Photo Paper degrade about
10 times faster in sunlight than under fluorescent light.
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Arthur Entlich <e-printerhelp DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote:

> ... The older Epson "photo quality" matte paper
> didn't fare a heck of a lot better (maybe twice as long),
> however, the "heavy weight archival matte" has don't much better.

Hopefully you mean "has done much better.

> Sadly, other than real or accelerated testing, I don't think one can
> make any generalization about any inkjet paper, other than to say that
> swellable polymer papers tend to give longer lasting results than
> microporous.

Is the Epson Heavy Weight Archival Matte a swellable polymer paper?

However see this photo.net thread claiming non-archival HWM lasts longer
with dye-based inks, because HW Archival Matte is designed for pigment inks:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004MBk&tag=

Aha, two swellable polymer papers are Epson Colorlife and
Ilford Gallerie Classic (pearl and gloss).
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.

It's always a little curious how users "report many years" when the printer
they are reporting on has only existed for about a year.

> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters.

Yes. That matters.
Dye-based inks are simply nowhere near as stable as the pigment-based inks
used by the 2400 and large-format Epson printers.



Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.

It's always a little curious how users "report many years" when the printer
they are reporting on has only existed for about a year.

> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters.

Yes. That matters.
Dye-based inks are simply nowhere near as stable as the pigment-based inks
used by the 2400 and large-format Epson printers.



Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.

It's always a little curious how users "report many years" when the printer
they are reporting on has only existed for about a year.

> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters.

Yes. That matters.
Dye-based inks are simply nowhere near as stable as the pigment-based inks
used by the 2400 and large-format Epson printers.



Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.

It's always a little curious how users "report many years" when the printer
they are reporting on has only existed for about a year.

> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters.

Yes. That matters.
Dye-based inks are simply nowhere near as stable as the pigment-based inks
used by the 2400 and large-format Epson printers.



Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers? 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> Anybody have words of wisdom about longevity of inkjet Matte papers?
> According to Wilhelm's testing they are more durable against fading
> than glossy "Photo" papers. Friends who use Epson Heavyweight Matte
> on an Epson 2400 report many years of non-fading display.

It's always a little curious how users "report many years" when the printer
they are reporting on has only existed for about a year.

> Whereas Epson Photo Paper with Epson dye-based inks starts to fade in
> my kitchen (filtered sunlight) within months, although it lasts about
> a year in my office (flourescent lights) before I notice cyan fading.
>
> I'm using Canon CLI dye-based inks, if that matters.

Yes. That matters.
Dye-based inks are simply nowhere near as stable as the pigment-based inks
used by the 2400 and large-format Epson printers.



Some net.advice
> indicates Epson Heavyweight Matte is fine with Canon printers, but
> Canon also offers a matte paper.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson
 >> Stay informed about: Longevity of inkjet Matte papers?