Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras

aniramca DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:

> Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
> camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
> getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
> the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
> sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
> Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
> 28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?

Olympus offers a middle ground. Their lenses are not cheaper though and
the image quality is not that much better than P&S. One thing is the
larger sensor itself costs a lot more money because the benefit of
minaturization is you can use tiny inexpensive pieces of silicon chips &
the size/cost effect on silicon is exponential. You can use tiny lenses
too. Above a certain size it just makes sense to allow interchangeable
lenses.

Larger formats have shallower depth of field and need longer exposure
times with a tripod like the old Ansel Adams large format gear and the
long telephoto lenses become exponentially more expensive at those
formats. It's almost unheard-of to do long telephoto action photography
with larger formats but around 35mm works out pretty well as long as you
aren't doing huge prints. If you need huge prints, stitch panoramas or
pay 10's of thousands for digitals at that size or simply use film.

Very wide angle lenses are difficult to design, particularly for smaller
sensors so again 35mm is a a good compromise.

I think there is one high-end large sensor digital with a large sensor
and fixed lens but it's expensive and very limited zoom, maybe just
fixed focal length. And I think it's a rangefinder meaning no
through-the lens framing.

--
Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

> However I see no reason they can't do an a dSLR sized camera with a
> non-removable 28 to 135 lens. Yes, it would be the size of a dSLR with
> that size lens, but I don't see a problem with that. As far as I am
> concerned changable lenses are highly over rated.
>
> Somebody!

I agree, when I buy an 800mm f/2 I think it should come with a camera
attached... ^
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

<aniramca.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185416179.403013.277340@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
> camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
> getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
> the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
> sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
> Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
> 28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?
>
Have you seen the size of the Sony R1 sensor That was an APS-C

The Minolta 7 to 200 used 2/3
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

Trev wrote:
> <aniramca.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1185416179.403013.277340@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
>>camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
>>getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
>>the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
>>sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
>>Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
>>28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?
>>
>
> Have you seen the size of the Sony R1 sensor That was an APS-C
>
> The Minolta 7 to 200 used 2/3
>
>


It didn't, it used 1/1.8 which is larger than 2/3, and about 6 x 8mm in
size. That is still a very small sensor.

The Sony R-1 and the Sigma whateveritiscalled compact use 1.7X factor
sensors, small DSLR size.

David
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:00:37 +0100, David Kilpatrick
<iconmags3 RemoveThis @btconnect.com> wrote:

>Trev wrote:
>> <aniramca RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1185416179.403013.277340@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
>>>camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
>>>getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
>>>the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
>>>sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
>>>Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
>>>28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?
>>>
>>
>> Have you seen the size of the Sony R1 sensor That was an APS-C
>>
>> The Minolta 7 to 200 used 2/3
>>
>>
>
>
>It didn't, it used 1/1.8 which is larger than 2/3, and about 6 x 8mm in
>size. That is still a very small sensor.

Don't know about the earlier 7, I never owned one, but my A2
used a 2/3" sensor which is about 6.6x8.8mm.

A 1/1.8" sensor is smaller, about 5.3x7.2mm.

--
John Bean
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

"David Kilpatrick" <iconmags3.RemoveThis@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:y_udncr4mbdY7TXbRVnyggA@bt.com...
> Trev wrote:
>> <aniramca.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1185416179.403013.277340@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
>>>camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
>>>getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
>>>the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
>>>sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
>>>Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
>>>28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?
>>>
>>
>> Have you seen the size of the Sony R1 sensor That was an APS-C
>>
>> The Minolta 7 to 200 used 2/3
>
>
> It didn't, it used 1/1.8 which is larger than 2/3, and about 6 x 8mm in
> size. That is still a very small sensor.
>
> The Sony R-1 and the Sigma whateveritiscalled compact use 1.7X factor
> sensors, small DSLR size.
>
> David

I only went by my Inst book, But You should know if anyone does. :¬)
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

Mark Dunn <markrhdunn DeleteThis @nospamatgmail.com> observed
>I believe noise is a problem which increases in proportion to the size of
>the sensor.

er,.... inverse proportion..... ?

Mike
[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
--
Michael J Davis
<><
Some newsgroup contributors appear to have confused
the meaning of "discussion" with "digression".
<><
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:56:31 +0100, "Mark Dunn"
<markrhdunn.TakeThisOut@nospamatgmail.com> wrote:

>I believe noise is a problem which increases in proportion to the size of
>the sensor.

It's the other way around, which is really what the OP
is (and others) are complaining and wondering about.

Specifically: why are the "larger" (15x23 mm) sensors
only found in SLR bodies?

I believe there's a market for a decent P&S with a
"large" sensor. I understand it would cost a bit more.

But it has to be reasonably light and compact, for
my purposes, anyway.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

Raphael Bustin wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:56:31 +0100, "Mark Dunn"
> <markrhdunn.TakeThisOut@nospamatgmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I believe noise is a problem which increases in proportion to the size of
>>the sensor.
>
> It's the other way around, which is really what the OP
> is (and others) are complaining and wondering about.
>
> Specifically: why are the "larger" (15x23 mm) sensors
> only found in SLR bodies?
>
> I believe there's a market for a decent P&S with a
> "large" sensor. I understand it would cost a bit more.
>
> But it has to be reasonably light and compact, for
> my purposes, anyway.

Leica M8 1.3x crop 10MP digital rangefinder $5,000. No lens included so
so add another $4,000 for a 35mm f/1.4. Technically it's a P&S in the
sense of film P&S except for the interchangeable lens part.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06091412leicam8previewed.asp

--
Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:47:56 +0100, "Trev"
<trevbowdenAT.dsl.pipex.COM> wrote:

>
>"David Kilpatrick" <iconmags3.TakeThisOut@btconnect.com> wrote in message
>news:y_udncr4mbdY7TXbRVnyggA@bt.com...
>> Trev wrote:
>>> <aniramca.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1185416179.403013.277340@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
>>>>camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
>>>>getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
>>>>the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
>>>>sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
>>>>Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
>>>>28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Have you seen the size of the Sony R1 sensor That was an APS-C
>>>
>>> The Minolta 7 to 200 used 2/3
>>
>>
>> It didn't, it used 1/1.8 which is larger than 2/3, and about 6 x 8mm in
>> size. That is still a very small sensor.
>>
>> The Sony R-1 and the Sigma whateveritiscalled compact use 1.7X factor
>> sensors, small DSLR size.
>>
>> David
>
>I only went by my Inst book, But You should know if anyone does. :¬)
>

*Should* know, but...

We all have bad days

--
John Bean
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

I believe noise is a problem which increases in proportion to the size of
the sensor.
"Paul Furman" <paul- DeleteThis @-edgehill.net> wrote in message
news:VbVpi.20707$rL1.13804@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...
> aniramca DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
> > camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
> > getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
> > the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
> > sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
> > Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
> > 28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?
>
> Olympus offers a middle ground. Their lenses are not cheaper though and
> the image quality is not that much better than P&S. One thing is the
> larger sensor itself costs a lot more money because the benefit of
> minaturization is you can use tiny inexpensive pieces of silicon chips &
> the size/cost effect on silicon is exponential. You can use tiny lenses
> too. Above a certain size it just makes sense to allow interchangeable
> lenses.
>
> Larger formats have shallower depth of field and need longer exposure
> times with a tripod like the old Ansel Adams large format gear and the
> long telephoto lenses become exponentially more expensive at those
> formats. It's almost unheard-of to do long telephoto action photography
> with larger formats but around 35mm works out pretty well as long as you
> aren't doing huge prints. If you need huge prints, stitch panoramas or
> pay 10's of thousands for digitals at that size or simply use film.
>
> Very wide angle lenses are difficult to design, particularly for smaller
> sensors so again 35mm is a a good compromise.
>
> I think there is one high-end large sensor digital with a large sensor
> and fixed lens but it's expensive and very limited zoom, maybe just
> fixed focal length. And I think it's a rangefinder meaning no
> through-the lens framing.
>
> --
> Paul Furman Photography
> http://www.edgehill.net/1
> Bay Natives Nursery
> http://www.baynatives.com
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

"Mark Dunn" <markrhdunn DeleteThis @nospamatgmail.com> wrote in message
news:V-idnYWhNvYt_DXbRVnygAA@bt.com...
>I believe noise is a problem which increases in proportion to the size of
> the sensor.
Not the size of but the lack of size. a large sensor of 23 x 15 mm with 10
MP will not produce as much noise as a 6 x 4 mm 10 mp sensor used on the
P&S.
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=sensor%20sizes
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras 

David Kilpatrick wrote:
> Trev wrote:
>
>> <aniramca.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1185416179.403013.277340@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Is it physically not possible to mount larger size sensor in a P&S
>>> camera? I notice that the larger the sensor size, the camera is
>>> getting bigger and becoming closer to DSLR (G7, S5IS, FZ50, etc). Is
>>> the sensor mounted a certain distance from the lens? Therefore larger
>>> sensor means larger lens and larger distance between the two.
>>> Will they ever built a P&S camera with sensor used in DSLR ( 23x15mm,
>>> 28x18mm or even full size 35mm film size 36x24mm)?
>>>
>>
>> Have you seen the size of the Sony R1 sensor That was an APS-C
>>
>> The Minolta 7 to 200 used 2/3
>>
>
>
> It didn't, it used 1/1.8 which is larger than 2/3, and about 6 x 8mm in
> size. That is still a very small sensor.

Sorry - my error. Still remembering the original fuss which Minolta made
about the 1/1.8 inch sensor and how it was larger than the standard used
by digicams - which of course was 1/2 not 2/3 at the time. This was like
a mantra from Minolta marketing.

But it was, of course, for the Dimage 5 not the 7 series - over which no
similar PR activity took place (they didn't sit you down in a room and
show a Powerpoint presentation all about the benefits of the 1/1.8 inch
sensor - or for that matter 2/3).

5 and 7 - same lens module, sensor size changed the field of view from
an effective 35-250mm with the 5 to 28-200mm with the 7. The 5 didn't
seem to last long at all on the market.

I did write after the A2 was launched about the 2/3 sensor (have not
been unaware of it - just forgotten) and the true coverage of the GT
zoom lens, which Minolta called 28-200mm. That only applies if you crop
the 4:3 aspect ratio of the 2/3 sensor down to a 3:2 frame (35mm
equivalent). If you make a US letter paper sized print crop, you would
need a 24/25mm lens on a 35mm camera to match the angle. They could,
just as reasonably, have called the lens a 25-180mm.

While the sensor is 6.6 x 8.8mm, does anyone know the active pixel area?
I used the active area of 35mm film (22.5 x 34.5mm, standard GePe slide
mount and standard masking neg carrier) but the full area of the sensor
when considering this.

David
 >> Stay informed about: Limit of sensor size in P&S cameras