Inkjet printing both sides

Terry Pinnell wrote:
> Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
> appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
> here.
>
> I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
> quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
> from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
> wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
> Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
> ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
> I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
> deliberately 'waxed' or something?
>
You don't mention what printer you are using. Some modern inkjet
printers are designed so that the ink and paper react chemically, and
you NEED to use the recommended papers in order to get the best results.
Using paper not designed to be printed on both sides can result in
poor results, as you have noted. I can only suggest that you print the
side that smears first, and give it some time (several minutes) to dry
before printing the other side. This may give acceptable results.
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

Paul Furman wrote:
> Terry Pinnell wrote:
>> Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
>> appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
>> here.
>>
>> I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
>> quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
>> from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
>> wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
>> Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
>> ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
>> I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
>> deliberately 'waxed' or something?
>
> Use matte 'watercolor' paper instead. It's really nice stuff and there's
> no coating to worry about.

My wife often prints cards on both sides, and we have found that Kodak
'Semi gloss' paper works well for two sided printing on our HP printers.
Other ink formulations may not work as well. Giving one side time to
dry before printing the other side is essential when using coated papers!
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

Ron Hunter <rphunter RemoveThis @charter.net> wrote:

>Terry Pinnell wrote:
>> Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
>> appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
>> here.
>>
>> I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
>> quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
>> from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
>> wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
>> Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
>> ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
>> I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
>> deliberately 'waxed' or something?
>>
>You don't mention what printer you are using. Some modern inkjet
>printers are designed so that the ink and paper react chemically, and
>you NEED to use the recommended papers in order to get the best results.
> Using paper not designed to be printed on both sides can result in
>poor results, as you have noted. I can only suggest that you print the
>side that smears first, and give it some time (several minutes) to dry
>before printing the other side. This may give acceptable results.

Sorry, Ron, I meant to do so; it's an Epson C82.

But when I said 'smeary wet mess', I was being precise! Ink was
actually 'puddled' in several cases, with original image barely
recognisable. That's as it emerged from printer, so no question of
allowing it to dry.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

It is the same problem if you are using an inkjet coated paper. It
isn't the ink that is the problem, it is the paper itself which is not
designed for heat.

In most cases the true matte surfaced inkjet paper (not semigloss or
pearl) does not melt when placed through a laser or photocopier, but
there are no guarantees. Most fully matte inkjet coatings are made of a
clay/ceramic which is not damaged by heat. In most cases, the inkjet
ink itself isn't the problem, so it may be better to print the ink side
first and then laser print, because the heat may somewhat disrupt the
inkjet coating in other ways than melting it.

There are some brands of glossy and semigloss inkjet papers which have a
special coating on the reverse side that is designed to accept black
inkjet for text only.

Also, if you print the card the right way and do a four way fold, if you
print the front and back in one direction, and the inside panels upside
down and fold it, you can print the whole card on one sheet on one side.
Using a full letter size (8.5" x 11" page, the card will end up folded
dimensions of 5.5" x 4.25" front surface with the two inside panels
being 5.5" x 8.5" total.

Art


MyVeryOwnSelf wrote:

>>>I trick I've used to work around this: If you have access
>>>to a laser printer, print the back side on that first,
>>>then the color on the photo side.
>
>
>>Some inkjet coatings, and the glossy are more likely, can be a type of
>>plastic that will melt with the heat of a laser printer fuser. Some
>>people have ruined their laser printer's fuser doing this, so beware!
>>
>>Obviously, some inkjet paper coatings survive the heat, but you need to
>>be careful.
>
>
> Right, I've had problems with a laser printer after feeding a page that was
> previously ink-jet-printed on the other side.
>
> But what about the opposite? Is there any problem first printing one side
> with a laser printer (or copier for that matter), then ink-jet-printing the
> second side?
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

The coatings on the reverse side do have several potential functions.
As I mentioned, some are coated for text only, some at designed to
maintain dimensionally and prevent warping, as you mentioned, some have
a coating designed to allow better paper transport through the printer
with less slippage, some have codes to tell the printer the type of
paper so the proper driver profile is selected for that paper type, so
helps to maintain the integrity of the inks.

Art


Burt wrote:

> "Terry Pinnell" <terrypinDELETE.RemoveThis@THESEdial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:mkvpt3lelb84t8arkgceelorhv0bmeb5sk@4ax.com...
>
>>Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
>>appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
>>here.
>>
>>I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
>>quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
>>from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
>>wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
>>Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
>>ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
>>I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
>>deliberately 'waxed' or something?
>>
>>--
>>Terry, East Grinstead, UK
>
>
> I would guess that the back coating has a function - possibly to keep the
> paper flat. Coating one side only may cause a different amount of moisture
> absorption and warp the paper. I've used Epson Glossy Photo paper and
> printed on both sides successfully. It does have a very faint logo repeat
> pattern printed on the back side, but no one who has received these cards
> noticed it at all. I currently use Staples Supreme Double Sided Matte paper
> for printing two sided cards. Because it is a paper specifically coated for
> receiving inkjet photo images, it looks quite good and is also a very decent
> weight and stiffness for cards. Although glossy photo papers print a more
> vivid photo, this matte paper is a close second best.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

In a forum such as this, clarity and detail can count. Some errors made
due to incomplete information can cause irreversible damage to equipment.

I am not implying your intent was anything but honorable, but as you
yourself made note in the aftermath, some inkjet papers you recognized
are inappropriate for use in laser printers, and you would not use them,
but it is probably dangerous to make the assumption others would know
offhand which were safe and which were not.

As they say, "sometimes the devil is in the details".

I can attest, having done many tests and reviews on papers, both inkjet
and laser, that packaging can be misleading or remiss in details such as
warning people not to use an inkjet paper type in a laser printer. For
instance, something that just states "Works on all inkjet printers"
doesn't necessarily preclude "doesn't work with laser printers". Also,
many people do not have a clear understanding of the nature of the
technologies they work with, and that laser printers, as an example,
require high temperatures to work which inkjets do not.

Art


rjn wrote:

> Arthur Entlich <e-printerh... RemoveThis @mvps.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Some inkjet coatings, and the glossy are more likely, can be a type of
>>plastic that will melt with the heat of a laser printer fuser. Some
>>people have ruined their laser printer's fuser doing this, so beware!
>
>
> I would expect any papers not suited to laser printing
> to say so on the carton, although perhaps inadequately
> emphasized as "Use only in inkjet printers" or some such.
>
>
>>Obviously, some inkjet paper coatings survive the heat,
>>but you need to be careful.
>
>
> I've never had a problem doing it, but that could be just
> the luck of the draw on the media. I do have some early
> HP JetSeries stock that is clearly a plastic base, and
> that I stuff I never fed to the LaserJet for this very reason.
>
> Of course, if the OP doesn't own a laser printer, and
> buys an old LaserJet cheaply on eBay, then not much
> is at risk
>
> --
> Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
> http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
> NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

Terry Pinnell wrote:
> Ron Hunter <rphunter.DeleteThis@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> Terry Pinnell wrote:
>>> Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
>>> appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
>>> here.
>>>
>>> I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
>>> quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
>>> from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
>>> wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
>>> Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
>>> ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
>>> I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
>>> deliberately 'waxed' or something?
>>>
>> You don't mention what printer you are using. Some modern inkjet
>> printers are designed so that the ink and paper react chemically, and
>> you NEED to use the recommended papers in order to get the best results.
>> Using paper not designed to be printed on both sides can result in
>> poor results, as you have noted. I can only suggest that you print the
>> side that smears first, and give it some time (several minutes) to dry
>> before printing the other side. This may give acceptable results.
>
> Sorry, Ron, I meant to do so; it's an Epson C82.

You can also just try any card stock. The colors may not come out quite
right but it may be good enough. That printer doesn't absolutely need
special paper.

> But when I said 'smeary wet mess', I was being precise! Ink was
> actually 'puddled' in several cases, with original image barely
> recognisable. That's as it emerged from printer, so no question of
> allowing it to dry.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

On Mar 16, 7:12 am, Terry Pinnell <terrypinDEL....TakeThisOut@THESEdial.pipex.com>
wrote:
> Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
> appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
> here.
>
> I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
> quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
> from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
> wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
> Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
> ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
> I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
> deliberately 'waxed' or something?
>
> --
> Terry, East Grinstead, UK


Several things to try:
1) Use the plain paper setting when printing on the back of a paper.
Trying to print on the back of RC paper just won't work do to what you
found out, no ink jet receptive coating, plain paper will work with
inkjet inks.
2) Inkpress makes a reasonably priced glossy paper that has a real
paper base, don't know if this is available where you live, I got mine
from www.inkjetart.com.
3) I have used fine art paper in the past for making cards and it
worked very well.
4) Use a double sided paper, many are available, Ilford I believe has
one.
5)You can print on the paper you have, then purchase a card stock
paper, print on the card stock for the inside text, then mount the
photo nicely on the front of the card.
6) Don't try all sorts work around just because you have this paper,
it is not suited for the job and you should try some other paper. All
the suggestions here don't sound like they will make a nice card.


Tom
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

>> But what about the opposite? Is there any problem first printing one
>> side with a laser printer (or copier for that matter), then
>> ink-jet-printing the second side?

> It is the same problem if you are using an inkjet coated paper. It
> isn't the ink that is the problem, it is the paper itself which is not
> designed for heat.

So plain old copier paper is ok?
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

Terry Pinnell wrote:
>> Nonsense, paper is coated on one side to keep costs down.
>> There is double sided photopaper, e.g. Kodak Picture Pater CAT 807 7448,
>> which is reasonable priced.
>> You can also glue 2 sheets together.
>
> Thanks both.
>
> I suspect 2 glued sheets would be too hard to fold neatly

I don't recall your saying what kind of work you wanted to create. I
think that one approach could be to print your photos on the expensive
side, and use the opposite side for text, line art, graphics -- etc.

Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

Inkjet printers use no heat or fusing process. The only heat that is
generated on thermal inkjet head printers, is to heat the ink to propel
it onto the paper, which doesn't heat the paper. The only issues with
paper choices for inkjet printers are:

Is the paper intact such that surfaces or glues, or other parts won't
flake off, or disintegrate during the printing or transport process?

Is the paper flexible enough to go through the paper transport if it has
to be curved or curled to get through?

Is the paper thin enough to clear through the paper transport? Is the
paper thick or rigid enough to get through the printer, and not get too
wet and soft, or bleed ink through the back?

Are the paper's edges straight and smooth enough to not get caught or
snagged on something along the way through the printer?


In terms of quality of the result:

Not all papers, even ones which claim "works with all inkjet printers"
will necessarily give the best quality print. Due to differences in ink
formulations (dye, hybrid, pigment, pigment and resin, etc), and the
technologies used in inkjet printers (Thermal versus piezo) papers react
differently. There is a reason why some inkjet brand papers do a better
job than generic papers, and it may take some experimentation to find
the right paper for your inks. Some papers will state the brands or
models or ink type that paper is recommended for, others, as stated,
will claim good for all but quality will vary with the printer you use.

Some papers will exaggerate banding, cause the ink to bead, not dry
correctly, may smear or the ink may transfer to the rollers in the
printer. Some papers will ripple, pucker, curl as they dry, cause
surface or gloss differential or bronzing between areas which have ink,
or certain color inks, and areas which do not. In general if you are
using OEM inks and use the OEM papers for that brand, they have been
tested or formulated to work together.

However, some at costly, and certain paper surfaces are not available
OEM so you may wish to experiment.

Papers with loose bonded fibers and which are uncoated and coarse
surfaces will tend to bleed considerably

Thin papers will tend to lack opacity which may make them not usable for
double sided printing. Lowering the amount of ink (by lowering
saturation and darkness or density adjustments in the driver) or by
using a profile for draft printing, or a profile for a plastic film may
use less ink than matte or plain paper settings.

Papers which have a true plastic coated or wax coated surface will
usually not take water-based inkjet inks, and they will bead up, smear,
or not dry at all or take a long time to do so.

Some inkjet specialized paper will has a seemingly plastic surface, but
it may actually be a swellable polymer (if you wet your finer and put it
on a corner of the paper and the paper sticks to your finger, it is
likely a swellable polymer type. Touching the paper with wet fingers
will ruin the area touched. It may also be a porous plastic which
allows the ink to go through the plastic surface and get locked into a
receptive ceramic or paper surface below it. Also, some papers are
coated with a very glossy ceramic surface which has very small pores in
it to allow the ink to enter a lower layer and get locked in and waterproof.

Some plastic films, some transparent, some translucent, and some opaque
white may have a special ink receptive coating on it. In general, films
of this nature which indicate they are for laser printers WILL not have
that coating and although they won't damage your inkjet printer, the ink
will not hold or dye on the surface. Such materials which are designated
for inkjet use should NOT be used in a laser printer, as the plastic
itself and the coating may both not be able to tolerate the heat the
laser fuser creates.

In general, standard bond papers, even those designated for inkjet use,
which are not coated on either side, can be used in both laser and
inkjet printers, as can most laser printer paper. Most "plain" papers
and card stocks which to not have other issues (too thick, etc) will
work in an inkjet printer, but the quality of the image will be
compromised due to "dot gain" or color bleeding.

In general, inks which use pigment colorants will hold the image
together better than dye colorant types with plain paper types.

Art


MyVeryOwnSelf wrote:
>>> But what about the opposite? Is there any problem first printing one
>>> side with a laser printer (or copier for that matter), then
>>> ink-jet-printing the second side?
>
>> It is the same problem if you are using an inkjet coated paper. It
>> isn't the ink that is the problem, it is the paper itself which is not
>> designed for heat.
>
> So plain old copier paper is ok?
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

Arthur Entlich <e-printerhelp.DeleteThis@mvps.org> wrote:

>Inkjet printers use no heat or fusing process. The only heat that is
>generated on thermal inkjet head printers, is to heat the ink to propel
>it onto the paper, which doesn't heat the paper. The only issues with
>paper choices for inkjet printers are:
>
>Is the paper intact such that surfaces or glues, or other parts won't
>flake off, or disintegrate during the printing or transport process?
>
>Is the paper flexible enough to go through the paper transport if it has
>to be curved or curled to get through?
>
>Is the paper thin enough to clear through the paper transport? Is the
>paper thick or rigid enough to get through the printer, and not get too
>wet and soft, or bleed ink through the back?
>
>Are the paper's edges straight and smooth enough to not get caught or
>snagged on something along the way through the printer?
>
>
>In terms of quality of the result:
>
>Not all papers, even ones which claim "works with all inkjet printers"
>will necessarily give the best quality print. Due to differences in ink
>formulations (dye, hybrid, pigment, pigment and resin, etc), and the
>technologies used in inkjet printers (Thermal versus piezo) papers react
>differently. There is a reason why some inkjet brand papers do a better
>job than generic papers, and it may take some experimentation to find
>the right paper for your inks. Some papers will state the brands or
>models or ink type that paper is recommended for, others, as stated,
>will claim good for all but quality will vary with the printer you use.
>
>Some papers will exaggerate banding, cause the ink to bead, not dry
>correctly, may smear or the ink may transfer to the rollers in the
>printer. Some papers will ripple, pucker, curl as they dry, cause
>surface or gloss differential or bronzing between areas which have ink,
>or certain color inks, and areas which do not. In general if you are
>using OEM inks and use the OEM papers for that brand, they have been
>tested or formulated to work together.
>
>However, some at costly, and certain paper surfaces are not available
>OEM so you may wish to experiment.
>
>Papers with loose bonded fibers and which are uncoated and coarse
>surfaces will tend to bleed considerably
>
>Thin papers will tend to lack opacity which may make them not usable for
>double sided printing. Lowering the amount of ink (by lowering
>saturation and darkness or density adjustments in the driver) or by
>using a profile for draft printing, or a profile for a plastic film may
>use less ink than matte or plain paper settings.
>
>Papers which have a true plastic coated or wax coated surface will
>usually not take water-based inkjet inks, and they will bead up, smear,
>or not dry at all or take a long time to do so.
>
>Some inkjet specialized paper will has a seemingly plastic surface, but
>it may actually be a swellable polymer (if you wet your finer and put it
>on a corner of the paper and the paper sticks to your finger, it is
>likely a swellable polymer type. Touching the paper with wet fingers
>will ruin the area touched. It may also be a porous plastic which
>allows the ink to go through the plastic surface and get locked into a
>receptive ceramic or paper surface below it. Also, some papers are
>coated with a very glossy ceramic surface which has very small pores in
>it to allow the ink to enter a lower layer and get locked in and waterproof.
>
>Some plastic films, some transparent, some translucent, and some opaque
>white may have a special ink receptive coating on it. In general, films
>of this nature which indicate they are for laser printers WILL not have
>that coating and although they won't damage your inkjet printer, the ink
>will not hold or dye on the surface. Such materials which are designated
>for inkjet use should NOT be used in a laser printer, as the plastic
>itself and the coating may both not be able to tolerate the heat the
>laser fuser creates.
>
>In general, standard bond papers, even those designated for inkjet use,
>which are not coated on either side, can be used in both laser and
>inkjet printers, as can most laser printer paper. Most "plain" papers
>and card stocks which to not have other issues (too thick, etc) will
>work in an inkjet printer, but the quality of the image will be
>compromised due to "dot gain" or color bleeding.
>
>In general, inks which use pigment colorants will hold the image
>together better than dye colorant types with plain paper types.
>
>Art

Great, thanks Art. Goes into my file for future reference. Meanwhile
can anyone recommend a double-sided glossy inkjet paper please, UK
online supplied? I want gloss on both sides. Just bought 25 sheets of
A4, 150g 'Photo Gloss' from www.photopaperdirect.com, but that is matt
on the back.

BTW, after much frustration I eventually made my finished card by
printing images on the glossy side of my original paper, like this:

.-------------------------------------.
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Back | | Front ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Inside Left | | Inside Left ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
'-------------------------------------'

I folded it (vertically and horizontally) *before* printing, which I
felt would minimise the risk of spoiling the result by the
considerable handling/squeezing necessary for to get decent creases.
The disadvantage of this was that the slightly raised creases had a
little ink on them in places. (Tipp-Ex to the rescue!)

The major problem I had was getting the images and gaps positioned
correctly for the folds. I was using PaintShop Pro 8, but I'm darned
if I've ever properly understood why the Print Preview can't give a
workably accurate representation of what I'll actually get. In the end
I resorted to trial/error, using b/w economy mode. If anyone has any
practical advice on this aspect I'd appreciate hearing it please.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides 

Terry Pinnell <terrypinDELETE.RemoveThis@THESEdial.pipex.com> wrote, including a
silly typo. South west section should be Inside Right:


.-------------------------------------.
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Back | | Front ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Inside Right | | Inside Left ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
'-------------------------------------'

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK
 >> Stay informed about: Inkjet printing both sides