Hybrio batteries?

John Bean wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:56:46 -0700, SMS
> <scharf.steven DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote:
>> The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from
>> Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon.
>
> Maybe in the US. Here they're both cheaper and easier to get
> hold of than Eneloop.
>
I've seen what appears to be hybrids from Kodak, a smidgeon cheaper at
WalMart than Ray-O-Vacs. Has anyone tried these? Strictly curiosity, as
I'm extremely happy with my two sets of Ray-O-Vacs.
Allen
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:25:15 GMT, Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

>>> So, how did you come up with that tidbit?
>>>
>>> Sanyo eneloop [2000AA] 12th charge
>>> 216.91 mins
>>>
>>>
>>> UNiROSS Hybrio 2100AA, 12th charge
>>> 241.5 mins
>>
>> My mistake, I was looking at the "out of box Hybrio" versus the 12th
>> charge eneloop. Sorry.
>>
>> The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from
>> Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon.
>
> The Hybrios are made by Spectrum, as are the Rayovac Hybrid. So far, I have
> had good luck with the Rayovac Hybrid and they can be purchased at Target and
> Walmart for about $8.99 for four AA or AAA.

Then there's a slight possibility that the Hybrids are the same as
the Hybrios. They both can be rated higher than 2,100 mAh or much
lower than 2,000 mAh depending on the manufacturer's choice of the
load used to determine the cell's capacity rating. That said, the
Hybrios are rated as having 5% greater capacity than the Eneloops,
yet they require 11% more time to charge, suggesting that the 2,100
mAh rating may be conservative, Eneloop's 2,000 mAh rating is
optimistic, or quite possibly, sample variation is skewing the
results, as it is very close to the 5% to 10% expected variation
mentioned for Table 1, where it says :

> any battery set within 5-10% of each other can be considered
> as equal in performance.


The author may know something about batteries, but either doesn't
know much about cameras, or the "Methodology" section was written
more than a couple of years ago. It says :

> Alkaline batteries are not suitable for digital cameras as the power
> is demanded faster than what an alkaline battery can deliver.

yet even though he tested the batteries at a far greater load than
today's cameras draw (5 ohms), the 'Doc' was surprised at how long
alkalines lasted compared to NiMH batteries, 75 minutes for the
Duracell alkalines vs. 133 minutes for the Sanyo Eneloops. Compare
these times with a modern camera. Canon's A630/A640, using alkaline
batteries, can shoot up to 1,200 images and has a playback time on
the LCD display of 20 hours. Alkalines sure don't seem unsuitable
for use in Canon's A Series cameras, nor in my comparable Fuji
camera, nor in several Kodak and Nikon models.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

ASAAR <caught DeleteThis @22.com> wrote:
>
> Then there's a slight possibility that the Hybrids are the same as
> the Hybrios. They both can be rated higher than 2,100 mAh or much
> lower than 2,000 mAh depending on the manufacturer's choice of the
> load used to determine the cell's capacity rating. That said, the
> Hybrios are rated as having 5% greater capacity than the Eneloops,
> yet they require 11% more time to charge, suggesting that the 2,100
> mAh rating may be conservative, Eneloop's 2,000 mAh rating is
> optimistic, or quite possibly, sample variation is skewing the
> results, as it is very close to the 5% to 10% expected variation
> mentioned for Table 1, where it says :
>

There is a good chance they are identical cells. I think most name brand
batteries in the US use a IEC capacity measurement to determine capacity. I
did this same test on the 12 Rayovac Hybrid batteries that I own and all of
them were above 2100mAh except one. Many were above 2150mAh. In contrast, I
also own 12 Sanyo Eneloop and ALL of them were rated above 2000mAh and two of
them were over 2100mAh. As far as charge time between the Rayovac and Eneloop
batteries; I simply have not noticed any difference, then again, I wasn't
looking for the 11%

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

"Clive" <clive.DeleteThis@cs.com> wrote in message
news:JLKgi.13103$p8.9056@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Has anyone done any comparisons with hybrio type batteries against other
> types?
>
> Thanks
>
> Clive

Have a look here.

http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

gerrit wrote:
> "Clive" <clive.RemoveThis@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:JLKgi.13103$p8.9056@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Has anyone done any comparisons with hybrio type batteries against other
>> types?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Clive
>
> Have a look here.
>
> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html

So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive!
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

SMS <scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html
>
> So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive!
>

So, how did you come up with that tidbit?

Sanyo eneloop [2000AA] 12th charge
216.91 mins


UNiROSS Hybrio 2100AA, 12th charge
241.5 mins

Did you somehow determine this from visually inspecting the voltage or
temperature graphs?

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

SMS wrote:
> gerrit wrote:
>> "Clive" <clive DeleteThis @cs.com> wrote in message
>> news:JLKgi.13103$p8.9056@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>> Has anyone done any comparisons with hybrio type batteries against other
>>> types?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Clive
>>
>> Have a look here.
>>
>> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html
>
> So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive!
>

I'm assuming the op was interested in self discharge properties, since
other than that there's nothing special about hybrid or eneloop.
I think a perusal of other posts on this topic will indicate unanimous
satisfaction with the performance of this type as regards self discharge.
Charts and tables are all very well, but I'm far more interested if I
can pick up my camera after 3 months of more of non use and shoot away
and then repeat this 3 months later than whether I match the 650 'quick
shots' I got or what I assume will be the smaller number when I have to
recharge again.
Dave Cohen
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> SMS <scharf.steven RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote:
>>> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html
>> So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive!
>>
>
> So, how did you come up with that tidbit?
>
> Sanyo eneloop [2000AA] 12th charge
> 216.91 mins
>
>
> UNiROSS Hybrio 2100AA, 12th charge
> 241.5 mins

My mistake, I was looking at the "out of box Hybrio" versus the 12th
charge eneloop. Sorry.

The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from
Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

SMS <scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote:
> Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
>> SMS <scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html
>>> So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive!
>>>
>>
>> So, how did you come up with that tidbit?
>>
>> Sanyo eneloop [2000AA] 12th charge
>> 216.91 mins
>>
>>
>> UNiROSS Hybrio 2100AA, 12th charge
>> 241.5 mins
>
> My mistake, I was looking at the "out of box Hybrio" versus the 12th
> charge eneloop. Sorry.
>
> The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from
> Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon.

The Hybrios are made by Spectrum, as are the Rayovac Hybrid. So far, I have
had good luck with the Rayovac Hybrid and they can be purchased at Target and
Walmart for about $8.99 for four AA or AAA.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

ASAAR wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:25:15 GMT, Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
>
>>>> So, how did you come up with that tidbit?
>>>>
>>>> Sanyo eneloop [2000AA] 12th charge
>>>> 216.91 mins
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> UNiROSS Hybrio 2100AA, 12th charge
>>>> 241.5 mins
>>> My mistake, I was looking at the "out of box Hybrio" versus the 12th
>>> charge eneloop. Sorry.
>>>
>>> The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from
>>> Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon.
>> The Hybrios are made by Spectrum, as are the Rayovac Hybrid. So far, I have
>> had good luck with the Rayovac Hybrid and they can be purchased at Target and
>> Walmart for about $8.99 for four AA or AAA.
>
> Then there's a slight possibility that the Hybrids are the same as
> the Hybrios. They both can be rated higher than 2,100 mAh or much
> lower than 2,000 mAh depending on the manufacturer's choice of the
> load used to determine the cell's capacity rating. That said, the
> Hybrios are rated as having 5% greater capacity than the Eneloops,
> yet they require 11% more time to charge, suggesting that the 2,100
> mAh rating may be conservative, Eneloop's 2,000 mAh rating is
> optimistic, or quite possibly, sample variation is skewing the
> results, as it is very close to the 5% to 10% expected variation
> mentioned for Table 1, where it says :
>
>> any battery set within 5-10% of each other can be considered
>> as equal in performance.
>
>
> The author may know something about batteries, but either doesn't
> know much about cameras, or the "Methodology" section was written
> more than a couple of years ago. It says :
>
>> Alkaline batteries are not suitable for digital cameras as the power
>> is demanded faster than what an alkaline battery can deliver.
>
> yet even though he tested the batteries at a far greater load than
> today's cameras draw (5 ohms), the 'Doc' was surprised at how long
> alkalines lasted compared to NiMH batteries, 75 minutes for the
> Duracell alkalines vs. 133 minutes for the Sanyo Eneloops. Compare
> these times with a modern camera. Canon's A630/A640, using alkaline
> batteries, can shoot up to 1,200 images and has a playback time on
> the LCD display of 20 hours. Alkalines sure don't seem unsuitable
> for use in Canon's A Series cameras, nor in my comparable Fuji
> camera, nor in several Kodak and Nikon models.
>
If a set of AA alkalines yield 1200 pictures on these cameras, one might
well install a set of lithium disposables and be fixed for the life of
the camera. Grin.
I installed two lithium disposables in my wife's Kodak C743 in December,
and I am still waiting for them to die before installing a shiny new set
of Eneloop batteries in it.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:28:55 -0500, Ron Hunter wrote:

> If a set of AA alkalines yield 1200 pictures on these cameras, one might
> well install a set of lithium disposables and be fixed for the life of
> the camera. Grin.

We wish. Actually, that's not as true as it may seem.
Lithium batteries don't really have a much greater energy capacity.
Unlike alkalines, they don't waste much of it in internal heating.
So the cameras that are old and have much greater current draws
should get much better battery life from lithium batteries. The
ones that are very efficient and get really great battery life from
alkalines shouldn't do too much better with lithium batteries. But
that's not always the case. The reason here would be cameras that
weren't really designed for alkaline batteries in the first place.
Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is
delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power
off at relatively high voltages, lithium, NiCd and NiMH will do well
and alkalines poorly.

Contrasting examples are Nikon's SB-600 and SB-800 speedlights.
The SB-600 is good for 200 flashes from four alkaline batteries and
400 flashes from lithium batteries. One would expect the higher
power SB-800 to favor lithium batteries even more, but Nikon rates
it at 130 flashes from four alkalines and 170 flashes from four
lithium batteries. It could probably close the gap even more, but
to get more than 130 flashes, the recycling time would probably get
pretty lengthy. Nikon probably couldn't get more than 170 flashes
from the lithiums because due to their higher voltage curve and
steep drop at life-end, they were probably completely exhausted at
the point of 170 flashes.


> I installed two lithium disposables in my wife's Kodak C743 in December,
> and I am still waiting for them to die before installing a shiny new set
> of Eneloop batteries in it.

Well, just remember that when you finally install them, it's
probably wise to recharge them yearly when you change your smoke
alarm batteries, whether the Eneloops need charging or not. <g>
Actually, while the Eneloops will probably give you slightly fewer
shots per charge than you'll get from the lithium batteries, they
might produce slightly faster flash recycle times. You might want
to test this with a shot or two while the C743 is still using the
lithium batteries and then compare after the Eneloops are installed.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:20:45 GMT, Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

>> Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is
>> delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power
>> off at relatively high voltages, lithium, NiCd and NiMH will do well
>> and alkalines poorly.
>>
>
> Actually, it is current related. The larger the current draw, the lower the
> voltage maintained by the cell; alkalines do the poorest, followed by NiMH,
> NiCd and finally Li (1.5V). I am not really sure where LiIon would fall in
> that ranking, but I suspect between NiMH and NiCd. That is why devices that
> draw high currents will indicate that a set of alkaline batteries are dead
> when there is in fact significant capacity left; they draw a high current and
> drop the voltage of the battery down below 1.0V.

Of course the voltage drop is a function of the current. But I
wasn't discussing that. The camera does not power off at a
particular current draw. It powers off at its design voltage cutoff
point. And yes, alkaline battery voltage drops considerably with
current because of its very high internal resistance. Energizer has
it ranging from 150 to 300 milliohms for AA alkalines. Assuming
fresh batteries delivering 1,000ma, the voltage drop would reduce
the approx. 1.5v to about 1.35v (voltage drop == I*R, or 1*0.15).
NiCd and NiMH batteries use *very* similar chemistry, and the
internal resistance is 35 to 45milliohms for NiCd AA cells and 30 to
40milliohms for NiMH AA cells. With fully charged cells, the same
1,000ma load would drop the voltage by 0.035v (NiCD) and 0.03v
(NiMH), both far lower than the 0.15v drop of the alkaline cells.
The data sheets for these rechargeables show that they are for
650mAh NiCd AA cells and 2,500mAh NiMH AA cells.

It should be noted that under high loads these rechargeables can
deliver voltages down to 0.9v and lower, even though when almost
100% depleted the open circuit voltage will be about 1.0v. So for
fully charged NiCd or NiMH batteries, it appears possible for them
to be able to deliver very high currents, maybe 10 amps for 10 to 15
minutes for NiMH cells and a couple of minutes for NiCd cells.
Lithium cells on the other hand are current limited to only 2 amps
continuous current and 3 amps at a reduced 20% duty cycle (2 seconds
on, 8 seconds off). Energizer doesn't give the internal resistance
for its L91 lithium AA cells, nor is the current limiting method
described, but the internal resistance is certainly higher than
NiCD and NiMH batteries, given that Nikon's SB-800 has recycle times
of 7.5 seconds for lithium batteries whether 4 or 5 are used, and 4
second recycling times for NiCd and NiMH cells when 4 are used, and
when 5 are used, 3.5 seconds for NiCd and only 2.9 seconds for NiMH.


> Keep some standard high capacity 2700mAh NiMH batteries around
> for those times when they would be consumed in a day or so of picture
> taking and keep the Eneloop or Hybrid batteries in the camera for the
> rest of the time.

I would have done that a year or two ago, but I've since found
that even when I shoot at a fairly high rate for several days
straight both my Fuji and Canon cameras won't need a battery change,
so I don't see a real need for standard 2,700mAh batteries because
the lower Eneloop/Hybrid capacities are still good for a couple of
days. So now I keep standard batteries in one camera and Eneloops
in the other. Eventually I'll use only Eneloops in both cameras. I
always have lots of alkalines and a few lithiums on hand for
emergencies, even though I was never one of the Y2K fanatics.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries? 

ASAAR <caught DeleteThis @22.com> wrote:
> Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is
> delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power
> off at relatively high voltages, lithium, NiCd and NiMH will do well
> and alkalines poorly.
>

Actually, it is current related. The larger the current draw, the lower the
voltage maintained by the cell; alkalines do the poorest, followed by NiMH,
NiCd and finally Li (1.5V). I am not really sure where LiIon would fall in
that ranking, but I suspect between NiMH and NiCd. That is why devices that
draw high currents will indicate that a set of alkaline batteries are dead
when there is in fact significant capacity left; they draw a high current and
drop the voltage of the battery down below 1.0V.

> Well, just remember that when you finally install them, it's
> probably wise to recharge them yearly when you change your smoke
> alarm batteries, whether the Eneloops need charging or not. <g>
> Actually, while the Eneloops will probably give you slightly fewer
> shots per charge than you'll get from the lithium batteries, they
> might produce slightly faster flash recycle times. You might want
> to test this with a shot or two while the C743 is still using the
> lithium batteries and then compare after the Eneloops are installed.
>

Keep some standard high capacity 2700mAh NiMH batteries around for those times
when they would be consumed in a day or so of picture taking and keep the
Eneloop or Hybrid batteries in the camera for the rest of the time.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
 >> Stay informed about: Hybrio batteries?