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Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too!

 
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John Navas

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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:57 am
Post subject: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too!
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)

[copied from
<http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=25725382>]

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

> I can happily get excellent A3 prints off my 6mp SLR.

I can happily get excellent A3 prints from my 7.2 MP FZ8.

For the benefit of non-metric lurkers, A3 paper is 11.7 in × 16.5 in
(193 in²), somewhat larger than 11x14 (154 in²), quite a bit less than
16x20 (320 in²). The diagonal is 20.2 in. Normal viewing distance is 1.5
× diagonal, or 1.5 × 20.2 in = 30.3 in.

As explained in http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/camera/resolution/,
the amount of resolution in MP needed for normal prints under ordinary
viewing conditions, given the limits of human vision, is (print area in
square inches) × 23.6 ÷ (viewing distance in inches)². For A3, that's
(193) × 23.6 ÷ (30.3)² = 5 MP (consistent with my table).

Thus both cameras are more than capable of excellent normal A3 prints,
even at less than normal viewing distance, with the FZ8 having a
significant edge.

>You cannot
> compare a smaller sensor 6mp to an APS one, far cleaner on APS.

"Far cleaner" is a vague and meaningless claim. Only visible differences
matter, and in normal A3 prints under ordinary viewing conditions at
normal viewing distance, the difference between your sensor and my
sensor isn't visible.

> For example major noise reduction smearing etc, will be noticable in
> moderate print sizes, you might get away with a small print. Minor
> artifacts tend to not be visible in prints, note the word..minor!

"Major noise reduction smearing" is equally vague and meaningless. I
normally shoot JPEG with Noise Reduction (and Contrast) turned down, and
there is no visible noise reduction smearing in normal A3 prints under
ordinary viewing conditions at normal viewing distance. Again, only
visible issues matter.

There are objective benefits to larger sensors (e.g., cleaner high ISO),
just as there are for smaller sensors (e.g., better lenses), but being
required for excellent A3 prints isn't one of them.

It's sad that some DSLR (large sensor) fans are so threatened on
equipment and technique that they feel the need to try to belittle and
put down smaller cameras and the people who use them.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

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John Bean

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Since: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 466



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:37 am
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:49:43 GMT, John Navas
<spamfilter1.TakeThisOut@navasgroup.com> wrote:

>[copied from
><http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=25725382>]


Why? Isn't it enough that you clutter the dpreview forum
with your camera snobbery nonsense that you feel obliged to
drag it here as well?

Give it a rest, please.


--
John Bean

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David J Taylor

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Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 604



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

JohnR66 wrote:
[]
> I wish one of the manufacturers would build a P&S with a APS sensor
> and a 28-70 lens. The lens would not have to be anywhere near the
> size of a DSLR version since the retrofocus design is not needed and
> the camera can be very small not having a mirror box or prism. I
> would not give up my DSLR, but I wouldn't have to lug it everywhere I
> want good pix and don't need specialty lenses.
[]
> John

John, how about:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/

APS sensor, 24 - 120mm eq. lens. Is that the size and weight you
expected?

David
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John Navas

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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:58:04 +0000, John Bean <waterfoot RemoveThis @gmail.com>
wrote in <u5tfk39a10c8sj0t4bpif52ovv38sv03gh RemoveThis @4ax.com>:

>On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:49:43 GMT, John Navas
><spamfilter1 RemoveThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>
>>[copied from
>><http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=25725382>]
>
>Why? Isn't it enough that you clutter the dpreview forum
>with your camera snobbery nonsense that you feel obliged to
>drag it here as well?

Defending compact cameras against attack by DSLR bigots is snobbery?
Now that's rich!

>Give it a rest, please.

I suggest you take your own advice.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! 
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Marty Fremen

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Since: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 74



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

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John Navas

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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:13 am
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 25 Nov 2007 00:06:38 GMT, Marty Fremen <Marty.DeleteThis@fremen.invalid> wrote
in <Xns99F31B7421FFC9A6.DeleteThis@213.239.142.64>:

>I was under the impression that one of the reasons digital cameras are
>not as small as you'd expect given the smaller-than-35mm sensors was
>because you *do* need a retrofocus design due to the sensors being picky
>about the angle at which the light hits them.
>
>My Olympus Myu-II film camera with a 35mm lens is actually less than 35mm
>deep with the lens out, whereas a Ricoh GR-D* with a 5.9mm lens is 54mm
>deep with the lens out. Why isn't it only 6mm deep? Why does the lens
>have to extend at all from the 31mm deep body (it's not a zoom)? I can
>only assume it's the design limitations of a CCD sensor which requires
>the light to hit it virtually straight on.

This depends on the efficiency of the microlens. The better the
microlens the less critical the angle of incidence.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! 
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John Bean

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Since: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 466



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:00 am
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:40:56 GMT, John Navas
<spamfilter1 RemoveThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>Give it a rest, please.
>
>I suggest you take your own advice.

I'm not the one on a soapbox endlessly droning on about the
percieved advantages of one class of camera; I made this
request to "give it a rest" only once.

Actually using various camera types is very educational
about the advantages and disadvantages of each, I suggest
you try it rather than engaging in your holy war.


--
John Bean
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John Navas

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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:00:11 +0000, John Bean <waterfoot.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
wrote in <jpkik3dp38r73nsi4lqan1pgtvt4105s69.RemoveThis@4ax.com>:

>On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:40:56 GMT, John Navas
><spamfilter1.RemoveThis@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>>Give it a rest, please.
>>
>>I suggest you take your own advice.
>
>I'm not the one on a soapbox endlessly droning on about the
>percieved advantages of one class of camera; I made this
>request to "give it a rest" only once.
>
>Actually using various camera types is very educational
>about the advantages and disadvantages of each, I suggest
>you try it rather than engaging in your holy war.

The holy way is being waged by DSLR bigots.
I'm simply defending compact cameras.
I use a wide variety of cameras, including a full SLR kit.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! 
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David J Taylor

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Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 604



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

John Navas wrote:
[]
> The holy way is being waged by DSLR bigots.
> I'm simply defending compact cameras.
> I use a wide variety of cameras, including a full SLR kit.

Including DSLR?

David
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John Navas

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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:03:58 GMT, "David J Taylor"
<david-taylor RemoveThis @blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
<iOi2j.53177$c_1.20034@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

>John Navas wrote:
>[]
>> The holy way is being waged by DSLR bigots.
>> I'm simply defending compact cameras.
>> I use a wide variety of cameras, including a full SLR kit.
>
>Including DSLR?

I don't currently own one. I borrow them fairly often, and even rent
them from time to time.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! 
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David J Taylor

External


Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 604



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

John Navas wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:03:58 GMT, "David J Taylor"
> <david-taylor.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
> <iOi2j.53177$c_1.20034@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>> []
>>> The holy way is being waged by DSLR bigots.
>>> I'm simply defending compact cameras.
>>> I use a wide variety of cameras, including a full SLR kit.
>>
>> Including DSLR?
>
> I don't currently own one. I borrow them fairly often, and even rent
> them from time to time.

Thanks,
David
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John Navas

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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:53:50 GMT, "David J Taylor"
<david-taylor DeleteThis @blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
<2xj2j.53210$c_1.17700@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:03:58 GMT, "David J Taylor"
>> <david-taylor DeleteThis @blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
>> <iOi2j.53177$c_1.20034@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

>> Including DSLR?
>>
>> I don't currently own one. I borrow them fairly often, and even rent
>> them from time to time.
>
>Thanks,
>David

p.s. Typical scenario is trading cameras with friends that have DSLRs
(and other compact cameras) for a half or even a full day of shooting.

I get to handle different cameras in the real world that way, not just
in a camera shop, and all of us learn a great deal.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! 
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John Navas

External


Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 1328



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:46 am
Post subject: Re: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:17:06 +0000 (UTC), davem.DeleteThis@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
Martindale) wrote in <fi7g0i$d9m$1@swain.cs.ubc.ca>:

>It seems to be the nature of Usenet to have the same arguments over and
>over again. If you look carefully, you'll often find that the "P&S vs.
>DSLR" arguments are not started by DSLR proponents. And whoever started
>it, an argument requires participation from both sides to continue.

My own take is quite a bit different. I think it's quite clear the
majority of the problem comes from constant bashing of compact cameras
and belittling of people who use them by DSLR fans (dare I say bigots?).
Not surprisingly, those using compact cameras find this offensive and
inflammatory, but even so they typically (but not always) confine
themselves to defending rather than bashing back. Unfortunately, it
doesn't pay to ignore the bashing and belittling because that tends to
encourage more of the same. And so it goes. I just don't think it's
fair to blame the victims. It only stops when everyone is so sick of it
that they drop it.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Excellent A3 prints from small sensors too! 
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