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Next: Just A Pinch Between The Cheek And Gum!!
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Since: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 73
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital, others (more info?)
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I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a few
pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air hostess
politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not permitted during
take-offs or landings. I told her that I was using a dedicated still digital
camera and not a camcorder, but she still asked me to turn it off. About 10
minutes later, when land was well out of sight, we were able to turn on our
"electronic devices". But about 10 minutes before landing, while still over
the sea, all electronic devices had to be turned off again. The only
worthwhile photography from this flight was during the first and last 5
minutes of the flight, and this would apply to many other flights that I
have been on.
Now I know that the use of camcorders has been banned during take-offs and
landings, but I didn't know that digital still cameras now suffered this
fate. My digital camera can't take movies, but I know that a lot of digital
still cameras can also take movies. From a practical point of view, does
anyone know whether digital cameras really CAN interfere with an aircraft's
navigation systems? Are airlines being a little too cautious with regard to
the use of digital cameras and camcorders?
About 5 years ago, nobody cared when I used my camcorder or digital still
camera during take-offs or landings, and there were no reports then of
interference with the aircrafts' navigation systems! So what has changed
during the last 5 years?
Podge |
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Since: Sep 14, 2005
Posts: 723
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Podge" <Podge DeleteThis @flight.com> wrote in message news:478abe46$1@clear.net.nz...
>I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a few
>pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air
>hostess politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not
>permitted during take-offs or landings. I told her that I was using a
>dedicated still digital camera and not a camcorder, but she still asked me
>to turn it off. About 10 minutes later, when land was well out of sight, we
>were able to turn on our "electronic devices". But about 10 minutes before
>landing, while still over the sea, all electronic devices had to be turned
>off again. The only worthwhile photography from this flight was during the
>first and last 5 minutes of the flight, and this would apply to many other
>flights that I have been on.
>
> Now I know that the use of camcorders has been banned during take-offs and
> landings, but I didn't know that digital still cameras now suffered this
> fate. My digital camera can't take movies, but I know that a lot of
> digital still cameras can also take movies. From a practical point of
> view, does anyone know whether digital cameras really CAN interfere with
> an aircraft's navigation systems? Are airlines being a little too cautious
> with regard to the use of digital cameras and camcorders?
>
> About 5 years ago, nobody cared when I used my camcorder or digital still
> camera during take-offs or landings, and there were no reports then of
> interference with the aircrafts' navigation systems! So what has changed
> during the last 5 years?
>
> Podge
I am really doubtful there would ever actually be a problem but just in case
there might be I personally am prepared to comply with the wishes of the
crew "just in case". |
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Since: Aug 02, 2005
Posts: 259
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Podge" <Podge DeleteThis @flight.com> wrote in message news:478abe46$1@clear.net.nz...
>I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a few
>pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air
>hostess politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not
>permitted during take-offs or landings. I told her that I was using a
>dedicated still digital camera and not a camcorder, but she still asked me
>to turn it off. About 10 minutes later, when land was well out of sight, we
>were able to turn on our "electronic devices". But about 10 minutes before
>landing, while still over the sea, all electronic devices had to be turned
>off again. The only worthwhile photography from this flight was during the
>first and last 5 minutes of the flight, and this would apply to many other
>flights that I have been on.
>
> Now I know that the use of camcorders has been banned during take-offs and
> landings, but I didn't know that digital still cameras now suffered this
> fate. My digital camera can't take movies, but I know that a lot of
> digital still cameras can also take movies. From a practical point of
> view, does anyone know whether digital cameras really CAN interfere with
> an aircraft's navigation systems? Are airlines being a little too cautious
> with regard to the use of digital cameras and camcorders?
>
> About 5 years ago, nobody cared when I used my camcorder or digital still
> camera during take-offs or landings, and there were no reports then of
> interference with the aircrafts' navigation systems! So what has changed
> during the last 5 years?
>
> Podge
Guess you haven't taken any flights for a while. Airline security has
changed drastically over the last several years, including turning off all
electronic deviced during takeoff & landings. Even something so harmless as
a PDA, which I usually have with me to read e-books during a flight. Most
PDAs have wireless connections built-in now, but years ago when I started
using one there was no such thing - didn't matter, it still had to be off
except while the aircraft was at cruising altitude.
Mark >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 156
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:42:25 +1300, "Podge" <Podge.RemoveThis@flight.com> wrote:
>I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a few
>pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air hostess
>politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not permitted during
>take-offs or landings. I told her that I was using a dedicated still digital
>camera and not a camcorder, but she still asked me to turn it off. About 10
>minutes later, when land was well out of sight, we were able to turn on our
>"electronic devices". But about 10 minutes before landing, while still over
>the sea, all electronic devices had to be turned off again. The only
>worthwhile photography from this flight was during the first and last 5
>minutes of the flight, and this would apply to many other flights that I
>have been on.
>
>Now I know that the use of camcorders has been banned during take-offs and
>landings, but I didn't know that digital still cameras now suffered this
>fate. My digital camera can't take movies, but I know that a lot of digital
>still cameras can also take movies. From a practical point of view, does
>anyone know whether digital cameras really CAN interfere with an aircraft's
>navigation systems? Are airlines being a little too cautious with regard to
>the use of digital cameras and camcorders?
>
I think there are some considerations you haven't thought about.
I don't know what the air hostess to passenger ratio was, but we
can't expect the air hostesses to have the time to check out each
passenger's device to see if it's something that is, or is not, within
the rules. In that brief time that you were stopped from using your
device, she had to monitor several passengers and conduct her other
duties. It makes their job easier to just say "no devices".
Also, there's the security consideration of allowing images to be
taken of ground facilities. Perhaps we're more conscious of this in
the US, but the idea of people being able to photograph airport ground
facilities is not acceptable here.
It may be that the possible interference in the aircraft's systems is
not the reason for the ban at all. It's a plausible excuse that
passengers are more likely to accept because they don't know anything
about the aircraft's system.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Mark B." <mbohntrash54.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>Guess you haven't taken any flights for a while. Airline security has
>changed drastically over the last several years, including turning off all
>electronic deviced during takeoff & landings.
That is not something that has changed or is new. It was
true long before, and has nothing to do with security,
but rather with safety.
>Even something so harmless as
>a PDA, which I usually have with me to read e-books during a flight. Most
>PDAs have wireless connections built-in now, but years ago when I started
>using one there was no such thing - didn't matter, it still had to be off
>except while the aircraft was at cruising altitude.
Exactly. The problem is that "electronic devices"
generate radio frequency signals (and digital device
tend to generate extremely broad spectrum signals,
making them far worse).
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.DeleteThis@apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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tony cooper <tony_cooper213 RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>I think there are some considerations you haven't thought about.
>
> I don't know what the air hostess to passenger ratio was, but we
>can't expect the air hostesses to have the time to check out each
>passenger's device to see if it's something that is, or is not, within
>the rules. In that brief time that you were stopped from using your
>device, she had to monitor several passengers and conduct her other
>duties. It makes their job easier to just say "no devices".
The _rule_ is "no electronic devices", the airline
attendant has no discretion.
>Also, there's the security consideration of allowing images to be
>taken of ground facilities. Perhaps we're more conscious of this in
>the US, but the idea of people being able to photograph airport ground
>facilities is not acceptable here.
That is not true.
>It may be that the possible interference in the aircraft's systems is
>not the reason for the ban at all. It's a plausible excuse that
>passengers are more likely to accept because they don't know anything
>about the aircraft's system.
Please direct that sort of response to alt.conspiracy,
where it belongs.
The reason for the ban *is* to prevent interference with
aircraft electronics (e.g., radio and other navigation
systems). That is a *very* real potential.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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External
Since: Dec 18, 2007
Posts: 128
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Podge" <Podge.RemoveThis@flight.com> wrote:
>I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a few
>pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air hostess
>politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not permitted during
>take-offs or landings.[...]
First a lot of people who answered to this posting seem to confuse security
and safety. The "all electronic devises off" has nothing to do with
security but is all about safety and non-interference with avionics and has
has been in effect for a long time.
However the operator does have discretion to allow devices they deem
harmless.
FAR § 91.21 Portable electronic devices:
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the
operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following
U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or
an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
[...]
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft
has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or
communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
I suppose other countries have enacted similar regulations.
jue >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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tony cooper <tony_cooper213 RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:00:31 -0900, floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com (Floyd L.
>Davidson) wrote:
>
>>tony cooper <tony_cooper213 RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>I think there are some considerations you haven't thought about.
>>>
>>> I don't know what the air hostess to passenger ratio was, but we
>>>can't expect the air hostesses to have the time to check out each
>>>passenger's device to see if it's something that is, or is not, within
>>>the rules. In that brief time that you were stopped from using your
>>>device, she had to monitor several passengers and conduct her other
>>>duties. It makes their job easier to just say "no devices".
>>
>>The _rule_ is "no electronic devices", the airline
>>attendant has no discretion.
>>
>>>Also, there's the security consideration of allowing images to be
>>>taken of ground facilities. Perhaps we're more conscious of this in
>>>the US, but the idea of people being able to photograph airport ground
>>>facilities is not acceptable here.
>>
>>That is not true.
>
>Right as usual, Floyd. The Wiley Post-Will Rogers Memorial Airport in
>Barrow, with its one runway, may allow the Barrow Camera and Baculum
>Carving Club to roam the airport facilities, but that's not the rule
>for any airport large enough to have more than a windsock for air
>traffic control.
Photographing an airport is no different than
photographing any other publicly viewable
infrastructure. Which is to say that the property owner
can indeed disallow photography on their premises, but
cannot disallow photography from a public location.
....
>>The reason for the ban *is* to prevent interference with
>>aircraft electronics (e.g., radio and other navigation
>>systems). That is a *very* real potential.
>
>I dunno what they fly out of Barrow, but in the airports I've flown
>out of they fly planes that don't wait until they hit 5,000 feet to
>turn on the radios and navigation systems. What do you think they use
>on take-off? Semaphores and Aldus lamps?
That statement lacks any logic at all.
>If I'm the pilot, and the fear is that the electronic devices are
>going to screw up my radio and navigation equipment, I want all the
>passengers to turn on everything they've got from digital cameras to
>boom boxes before I'm cleared for take-off.
A smart pilot wants any device that can generate RFI to
be type certified for the specific aircraft he is
piloting during critical times such as takeoff and
landing.
>If something's gonna go wrong, I want it to go wrong before I get high
>enough off the ground to bounce.
You're already bouncing off the wall and the ceiling,
you might as well try the ground too.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 2796
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Podge wrote:
> I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a
> few pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air
> hostess politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not
> permitted during take-offs or landings. I told her that I was using a
> dedicated still digital camera and not a camcorder, but she still asked
> me to turn it off. About 10 minutes later, when land was well out of
> sight, we were able to turn on our "electronic devices". But about 10
> minutes before landing, while still over the sea, all electronic devices
> had to be turned off again. The only worthwhile photography from this
> flight was during the first and last 5 minutes of the flight, and this
> would apply to many other flights that I have been on.
>
> Now I know that the use of camcorders has been banned during take-offs
> and landings, but I didn't know that digital still cameras now suffered
> this fate. My digital camera can't take movies, but I know that a lot of
> digital still cameras can also take movies. From a practical point of
> view, does anyone know whether digital cameras really CAN interfere with
> an aircraft's navigation systems? Are airlines being a little too
> cautious with regard to the use of digital cameras and camcorders?
>
> About 5 years ago, nobody cared when I used my camcorder or digital
> still camera during take-offs or landings, and there were no reports
> then of interference with the aircrafts' navigation systems! So what has
> changed during the last 5 years?
>
> Podge
I strongly doubt it, but airlines seem to take the position that
avoiding all possible sources of interference is worth the inconvenience
to their customers, and governments often make that mandatory. >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Podge" <Podge.RemoveThis@flight.com> wrote:
>
>From what I have read so far, there seems to be more of a problem with
>equipment that has radio transmitting and receiving abilities. I very much
>doubt that a digital camera could cause interference on the same scale as a
>cell phone, for example. But, perhaps the answer is to revive my old film
>camera and use this on flights instead of a modern digital camera?
Fifty fifty as to which is worse. The cell phone has a
higher output level, but it produces radiation within a
relatively narrow band of frequencies. The camera is
little different than a laptop computer, and while it
produces only very low levels, the frequency range is
very broad.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.RemoveThis@apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Chris Pisarra" <Chris.TakeThisOut@Pisarra.com> wrote:
> The argument that some electronic device will interfere with the
>plane's navigation is bullshit--and, if it were true, then it would make
>sense to ban the electronic devices while cruising, when they could get
>lost, not on takeoff and landing when they can see where they are going.
>
> Any airplane that could crash because some 10 year old kid is
>playing his PS2 is a plane I wouldn't want to fly on, and neither would you.
Don't fly on any airplanes then, because potentially
they *all* could.
The difference is that at altitude very few problems are
critical. The pilots have time to determine that an
instrument is not accurate, and can make reasoned
decisions about alternate methods to compensate. During
takeoff and landings, they are making split second
decisions one after the other and the effect of an
instrument failure is magnified many times.
> I doubt that there has been a single plane in the last 10 years
>that hasn't had at least one person leave their cell phone on for the entire
>flight, and there have been none, zero, zip, zilch, nada crashes therefrom.
But there *have* been instances of interference with the
flight instruments from cell phones.
The reason there have been no crashes is because they
are banned, and the exposure has therefore been reduced.
> The goal of all of this is to turn the passengers into sheep.
>It sure looks like the plan is working.
Nobody cares that you are woolly.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.TakeThisOut@apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Podge" <Podge.TakeThisOut@flight.com> wrote:
>
>Although a digital camera may have some components that are also used by a
>cell phone, a digital camera can't transmit a powerful radio signal like a
>cell phone can. I would regard a transmitting cell phone as a much higher
>risk to navigation equipment in an aircraft than a switched on digital
The cell phone does not generate a wideband radio noise
virtually across the entire useful frequency spectrum
either, and your digital camera does.
>camera, because of the cell phone's ability to transmit and receive radio
Receiving radio signals is not a risk factor.
>signals. I think Air New Zealand would also agree with this viewpoint as
>there are quite stringent rules with regard to the use of mobile phones:
>http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/travelinfo/ontheplane/electronicequipment/default.htm#priorapproval
What they say about mobile phones has virtually nothing to do with
how digital cameras present a risk.
>"Mobile phone use is permitted on all Air New Zealand aircraft when the
>aircraft is stationary on the ground, with the entry door(s) open. When the
>last entry door is closed, you will be advised to switch off your mobile
>phone/PDA. Please leave it off until you are advised that you are permitted
>to turn it back on again in-flight, should it be equipped with a flight or
>safe mode. Flight or safe mode mobile phones and PDAs may be used in-flight.
>Flight mode enables the basic functions of your mobile phone or PDA to be
>used whilst disabling the transmitting function. To take advantage of this,
>you must switch your device to flight mode, and then turn your device off,
>before the aircraft doors are closed. When the device is turned back on
>again, it will already be set to flight or safe mode and deemed safe. At no
>point during the flight will you be permitted to make or receive phone calls
>or SMS texts, send or receive emails, or use the internet."
That suggests they would not agree with you at all!
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.TakeThisOut@apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 901
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>photo>digital (more info?)
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"David J Taylor" <david-taylor RemoveThis @blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:
>> off, before the aircraft doors are closed. When the device is turned
>> back on again, it will already be set to flight or safe mode and
>> deemed safe. At no point during the flight will you be permitted to
>> make or receive phone calls or SMS texts, send or receive emails, or
>> use the internet."
>
>It will be amusing to see the reverse when mobile phones start being
>allowed on suitably equipped flights!
Cell phone systems are not compatible with aircraft
operation.
Can you imagine, for example, how many cell sites will
be triggered if you are at 35,000 feet over London and
try to get a dialtone?
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off .. |
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