Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here?

Alienjones <Alienjo....DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> In all seriousness... If you are going to enter a competition, exactly
> what do you expect the organizers to do? Pay you every time someone
> looks at your (probably non prize winning) entry?

I expect them to restrict their rights.


> There is nothing in the conditions that gives Canon exclusive copyright.

No, just non-exclusive use ... free & unlimited. It includes whoever
all of their "affiliates" are...for not only the winners, but every
image submitted, for a plethora of potential uses that go far far
beyond the competition website, thanks to the wonderfully broad and
vague phrase of "...support of the photography..."

And as per 4.1.2, you're giving away all rights to control or approve
how your work is to be used.


> I'd have thought if you won the competition, you could make some serious
> money from selling poster licenses, knowing all along, Canon were
> promoting your work at no cost to you. Not to mention the status (and
> sales or other work)flowing on in that market segment from being a winner.

Everyone always thinks of the potential upside for the Winner.

What about the upside for the other 99.999999% that entered?

This one from Canon at least *appears* to have a 2 year sunset on it,
but many so-called "contests" call for a perpetual license - they're
effectively image harvesters. Try Googling the topic a bit and you'll
see plenty of examples.


-hh
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

sobriquet wrote:
>
> Here's my submission in the macro category:
> http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto480675142d9c8
>
Wow, that's a really great image! You'll get my vote for sure! Good luck!

I'm also in the Macro Category:
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=ch&lc=de&photo_id=foto480a08f72c8fc

Wow... I'm glad that I'm swiss. Much less contestants here.

> I wonder if a similar contest was (or will be) held in the USA or in
> other parts of the world and whether this site is even accessible in
> countries outside of Europe.

I don't know. But an many cases, europeans where excluded from such
challenges. Now I can attend and I'm hoping... Maybe I'm lucky.

Marco

--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette
http://flickr.com/photos/kruemi
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/kruemi/images
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:54:14 +0200, Marco Tedaldi
<news0408.5.kruemi.TakeThisOut@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

>sobriquet wrote:
>>
>> Here's my submission in the macro category:
>> http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto480675142d9c8
>>
>Wow, that's a really great image! You'll get my vote for sure! Good luck!

Thx. I think the background is a bit busy and the light area at the
top is a bit of overblown with lack of contrast between the plant and
the background.
The competition is stiff.. I particularly like these Dutch sumbissions
but it's hard to choose from so many pics:
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto47e028757c302
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto4801bf59205d9
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto47f92ff2c2dcb
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto47e7e0124dc68

And you get a bit weary when you attempt to watch all submissions from
all countries, even in just a single category.

>
>I'm also in the Macro Category:
>http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=ch&lc=de&photo_id=foto480a08f72c8fc
>
>Wow... I'm glad that I'm swiss. Much less contestants here.

Cool, I like the shadow of the wing on the leaf.

I like these as well:
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto47e82c9fc05b2
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=nl&lc=nl&photo_id=foto47fd50a4d98d5
http://ta.canon-europe.com/?pg=gallery&cc=ch&lc=de&photo_id=foto47f8943208b08

I guess I'm a fan of droplets and moisture in macro pics. But insects
are more tricky because they can fly/run away if you don't approach
them carefully.

>
>> I wonder if a similar contest was (or will be) held in the USA or in
>> other parts of the world and whether this site is even accessible in
>> countries outside of Europe.
>
>I don't know. But an many cases, europeans where excluded from such
>challenges. Now I can attend and I'm hoping... Maybe I'm lucky.
>
>Marco
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

Alienjones <Alienjo... RemoveThis @invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> Your post was not about other "Examples" but the Canon competition.

Correct. The point being made was that Canon is not unique in terms
of their exploitive legal terms.

> As for the also rans... Tough. You play your best shot and if it isn't good
> enough, do better next time. And if it isn't good enough, how would
> Canon be able to gain anything from it? The clunkers of 2008 perhaps?

Canon could receive 10,000 absolutely great shots, but under the terms
of the contest, they can't all win.

And in terms of potential gain, let's assume for sake of illustration
that you've entered some guy's contest where he grants himself a
perpetual unlimited license for himself. Months later, you're
browsing through a Stock Photography website and you find your contest
submission image being listed for sale by someone else. By what is
now often signed away, its all perfectly legal.

There was a fairly recent court case where a company went under and
was being liquidated under Chapter 11. One of the items that came up
for sale was customer data that they had collected, but under a
promise of "we will never share this". You might want to go look into
the outcome.

Generally speaking, on these "contests", the posters who are not at
all concerned about their IP are the ones who have never considered
their portfolio worth anything, are are stooges who believe that
there's significant notoriety from "being published", despite the
modern reality that being published is nowhere as difficult or
expensive as it was twenty, or even five years ago. Today, one can
have a bound "coffee table" book made up of one's portfolio for under
$100, and can go pad our resume with the phrase, "Published Author".


-hh
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

On 22 apr, 22:12, -hh <recscuba_goo... DeleteThis @huntzinger.com> wrote:
> Better read the fine print...ie, the "I donate my copyright" bit:

I refuse to acknowledge copyright anyway. There is no copyright on the
internet.
Copyright is a relic of the past and once people publish things, there
is no way to control who distributes their information and on what
terms.
Copyright is just legal mumbo jumbo and a way to keep lawyers busy.
Companies like micro$oft or adobe with all their economic power can't
do much to prevent people from pirating (aka sharing) their software.
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

- -hh wrote:
| Better read the fine print...ie, the "I donate my copyright" bit:
|
|
| 4.1 Licenses
|
| 4.1.1
| Any User expressly agrees that by entering into the Competition
| (whether national Competition or the Assignment), he/she automatically
| grants to Canon and its affiliates the non-exclusive, free of charge
| and royalty-free right to sub-license, use, reproduce and/or display
| in any format and support any Photograph that he/she uploads on this
| Website or, if relevant, that he/she takes during the Assignment, for
| the purpose of supporting and promoting internally and externally on
| the Internet and in Europe Middle East and Africa for a period of two
| years from the date of entering the Competition:
|
| a. this Competition;
| b. the results of this Competition; and
| c. Canon's and its affiliates support of the photography and imaging
| industry and community, including but not limited through possible
| events (including exhibitions and corporate events), presentations,
| making-of movies, video-clips and publications (including Internet and
| press publications).
|
| 4.1.2
| Provided that Canon and its affiliates act within the scope of the
| license provided above, User expressly acknowledge Canon and its
| affiliates' right to treat User's Photograph at their sole discretion,
| and with this respect waive any right to inspect or approve any
| printed or electronic use of the Photographs in relation to the above-
| mentioned purposes.
|
| etc.
|
|
|
| -hh

In all seriousness... If you are going to enter a competition, exactly
what do you expect the organizers to do? Pay you every time someone
looks at your (probably non prize winning) entry?

There is nothing in the conditions that gives Canon exclusive copyright.
I'd have thought if you won the competition, you could make some serious
money from selling poster licenses, knowing all along, Canon were
promoting your work at no cost to you. Not to mention the status (and
sales or other work)flowing on in that market segment from being a winner.

- --

from Douglas,
If my PGP key is missing, the
post is a forgery. Ignore it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIDnRbhuxzk5D6V14RAjoFAJ4qNQjLo5RJmYEj3OCKYPf2NMVaygCffeXT
BXjAEXRhy0H1FyARczimdsE=
=yHro
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

- -hh wrote:
| Alienjones <Alienjo... RemoveThis @invalid.invalid> wrote:
|> In all seriousness... If you are going to enter a competition, exactly
|> what do you expect the organizers to do? Pay you every time someone
|> looks at your (probably non prize winning) entry?
|
| I expect them to restrict their rights.
|
|
|> There is nothing in the conditions that gives Canon exclusive copyright.
|
| No, just non-exclusive use ... free & unlimited. It includes whoever
| all of their "affiliates" are...for not only the winners, but every
| image submitted, for a plethora of potential uses that go far far
| beyond the competition website, thanks to the wonderfully broad and
| vague phrase of "...support of the photography..."
|
| And as per 4.1.2, you're giving away all rights to control or approve
| how your work is to be used.
|
|
|> I'd have thought if you won the competition, you could make some serious
|> money from selling poster licenses, knowing all along, Canon were
|> promoting your work at no cost to you. Not to mention the status (and
|> sales or other work)flowing on in that market segment from being a
winner.
|
| Everyone always thinks of the potential upside for the Winner.
|
| What about the upside for the other 99.999999% that entered?
|
| This one from Canon at least *appears* to have a 2 year sunset on it,
| but many so-called "contests" call for a perpetual license - they're
| effectively image harvesters. Try Googling the topic a bit and you'll
| see plenty of examples.
|
|
| -hh

Your post was not about other "Examples" but the Canon competition. As
for the also rans... Tough. You play your best shot and if it isn't good
enough, do better next time. And if it isn't good enough, how would
Canon be able to gain anything from it? The clunkers of 2008 perhaps?
- --

from Douglas,
If my PGP key is missing, the
post is a forgery. Ignore it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIDqIvhuxzk5D6V14RAjypAKCJKZzIJXjfV2sKyQlnyad1GI7hCwCfftg3
u07ZX5iIx6PGni5hApltRrg=
=rw2t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

(Hal Murray) wrote:
> -hh wrote:
> > Today, one can have a bound "coffee table" book
> > made up of one's portfolio for under $100, and can
> > go pad our resume with the phrase, "Published Author".
>
> Do you have a URL for that?

The actual publishing part (versus resume buffing), try Google for a
couple of appropriate terms. With 'publish your own book' (no
quotes), I found www.lulu.com I've not used them, so I have no idea
who they are, how good, etc).

Some of the 'good reputation' websites that offer online printing now
also sell bound products. Here's the link to one at mpix.com:

http://www.mpix.com/productsinfo.aspx?prod=10

The one that I've personally used on multiple occasions now is the
layout software & service provided by Apple on the Mac under their
'iPhoto' application:

http://www.apple.com/ilife/iphoto/printproducts.html

Apple's prices start at $30 (+ shipping) for a 10 page 8.5" x 11"
hardbound.

> Has anybody done it?  Is the quality any good?  If so,
> I'd expect it would be a great gift after major events:
> weddings, family reunions, business gatherings...

I put my first one together two years ago (a vacation photo album) as
a surprise Christmas gift for my wife. Everyone who has seen it has
been thrilled with the result. My personal reaction is that I should
have pumped up a few of the images a bit more, but that's nothing that
I can blame the printer for.

I've since was able to take the PDF export out of iPhoto, tortured it
through Acrobat and Photoshop and got the file size down from roughly
180MB to 3.2MB to be able to have a halfway decent low resolution
version online, which can be found here:

http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2006/Tanzania_album-2006s.pdf

BTW, do be aware that their page layout software is template-driven,
so you might not be able to easily get exactly what you want.

For example, on marked page 31 (page 32 in the PDF), the template's
style sheet for this 2-page layout for the left image (velvet faced
monkey) overlaid my image with a "creased paper" style, which I
personally do not care for. I couldn't find an easy/obvious control
to get rid of it, so I left it in.

I have later learned that there is a way that you can cheat and get
each page exactly the way you want, but it no longer is "drag and
drop" simple.

Since this project, I've used this software & service a few more
times, including for a family wedding that I got drafted to shoot last
summer. In general, the printer does a fine job and the Mac software
has reasonbly good workflow fidelity screen-to-print, although its
probably not at Pro levels. Overall, I'm satisfied that I'm the
workflow's weak link <g> and I will be using them again.


-hh
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

Today, one can
>have a bound "coffee table" book made up of one's portfolio for under
>$100, and can go pad our resume with the phrase, "Published Author".

Do you have a URL for that?

Has anybody done it? Is the quality any good? If so, I'd expect
it would be a great gift after major events: weddings, family reunions,
business gatherings...

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

-hh wrote:
> Alienjones <Alienjo....DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> In all seriousness... If you are going to enter a competition, exactly
>> what do you expect the organizers to do? Pay you every time someone
>> looks at your (probably non prize winning) entry?
>
> I expect them to restrict their rights.
>
I've read the terms in their full glory. They seemed acceptable to me.
If they are not acceptable for you, don't enter the contest (sorry, I
mean no offense by this, I just want to point out, that everyone can
decide, if he/she wants to enter or not).

You can see the same picture that I put in the contest on flickr. Under
a CC-license (ok, non commercial).
I see, that there is a great competition with great prizes and the
opportunity to show off my pictures to an audience. for this I'm giving
canon (and it's affiliates) the right to use the picture for two years
(yes, the restrict themselves here). That's a fair deal in my opinion.

Marco

--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette
http://flickr.com/photos/kruemi
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/kruemi/images
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

-hh wrote:
> Alienjones <Alienjo....DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> In all seriousness... If you are going to enter a competition, exactly
>> what do you expect the organizers to do? Pay you every time someone
>> looks at your (probably non prize winning) entry?
>
> I expect them to restrict their rights.
>
I've read the terms in their full glory. They seemed acceptable to me.
If they are not acceptable for you, don't enter the contest (sorry, I
mean no offense by this, I just want to point out, that everyone can
decide, if he/she wants to enter or not).

You can see the same picture that I put in the contest on flickr. Under
a CC-license (ok, non commercial).
I see, that there is a great competition with great prizes and the
opportunity to show off my pictures to an audience. for this I'm giving
canon (and it's affiliates) the right to use the picture for two years
(yes, the restrict themselves here). That's a fair deal in my opinion.

Marco

--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette
http://flickr.com/photos/kruemi
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/kruemi/images
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

sobriquet wrote:
| On 24 apr, 04:39, "Frank ess" <fr....RemoveThis@fshe2fs.com> wrote:


|> Nice try; no cigar.
|>
|> --
|> Frank ess
|
| The government is a mere extension of corporations (who pay for the
| government), so you can't expect the government to be concerned with
| individual rights (like the right to share information or even human
| rights in general).
| You can criminalize or demonize people all you like, but you can't
| hold back technological developments.
| Copyright is less and less of a feasible concept. In a few years
| devices like ipods with practically unlimited memory and network
| connectivity will be as ubiquitous as mobile phones and how exactly do
| you propose to prevent people from exchanging information, if you
| can't even do it right now with millions of people exchanging stuff
| online relatively unimpeded?
| Information doesn't become worthless by allowing it to be exchanged
| freely. It's just that it is no longer possible to express its value
| in monetary terms.
| Economic laws of supply and demand determine the price of things and
| in case of digital information, the supply is infinite (once you have
| a single copy, you can reproduce it indefinitely at no extra costs).
| Compare it to diamonds that are valuable because they are rare. If you
| could duplicate diamonds as easily as you can duplicate a software
| package like CS3, their value would drop to zero, because if there is
| an infinite supply, that means the price goes to zero. But that
| doesn't mean that diamonds are suddenly no longer useful for all sorts
| of purposes. So it's still valuable in that respect, but it's just no
| longer possible to express this value in monetary terms (because that
| requires an aspect of rarity).
| Apart from that, copyright is not the only possible way to provide a
| financial incentive to people who create things. Alternatively, we
| could tax the online exchange information, statistically monitor the
| items being exchanged and distribute some or all of the taxes
| accordingly to people who provide fresh and original material. In
| practice this is already being done with a levy on blank media to
| compensate for copyright infringement. So it's not that I think
| artists don't deserve to be rewarded for their efforts, it's just that
| I think we must strive towards a fair way to do it that actually works
| in practice and is compatible with modern technology.

You rather quaint and romantic attempt to justify your beliefs is
entertaining but founded on a totally wrong foundation... That communism
can produce productivity.

I will stop taking photographs for a living if people can copy them
instead of buy them. To stop people like you from taking my endeavorers
and destroying my business, there exists copyright, patents and
trademarks. The foundation of enterprise that encourages invention.

Before ever any of your romantic notions could have a hope in hell of
succeeding, you first will need to present people like me with an
alternative income source.

I do not like the growth of large corporation who manage to measure the
exact amount of money they can get away with charging for their goods
but I respect their right to do it. This is where your attempt to
justify anarchy and the destruction of civilization as we know it today
is fundamentally flawed.

I have no idea how you derive your income. I'll wager however that the
people who invented the CPU in the PC you are using to try to promote no
protection for them, are getting a royalty payment every time you
replace it.

The notion that a CPU or DRAM or any of the plethora of inventions - all
protected by copyright or patent - needed to build a computer would
exist if the inventors could not profit from them is absurd.

I strongly suggest that before ever you attempt to justify your opinion
that there should be no copyright, you should question and explore the
alternative. I certainly won't work for food alone. Linux is probably
the best example of why open source doesn't work.

Without patented and copyrighted goods and code (Linus Torvold owns the
patent to the core of Linux) The software would not exist. Even it's
existence came from taking someone else's patented idea and altering it.
Something which today, wouldn't be allowed. It demonstrates too, how
little incentive there has been in nearly 15 years for it to become
usable, compares to Microsoft OS.

People still pay several hundred dollars for Windows instead use the
free Linux. Why? Because there is no incentive to support what you
didn't get paid for.

- --

from Douglas,
If my PGP key is missing, the
post is a forgery. Ignore it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIEGF2huxzk5D6V14RAg8RAJ9AHziUn/wlFkYSh00lre5z0ZqxEwCfaQpJ
J2IpY78OMWRuizNJNm06SjM=
=o0+S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here? 

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:10:37 -0700 (PDT), sobriquet
<dohduhdah.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
>I've done that.. the alternative is taxing the online exchange of
>information.
>They already do that (in the form of a levy on blank media).
>

That is a flawed system. Who gets that tax money? Not the individual
creators of the work being copied. Somebody gets paid, but not the
person who did the work.

Of course, this discussion isn't really a fair discussion since you do
pay a special tas for blank media while we do not. Personally, I think
our system is better, since the money goes to the person or company
who does the work, not just the big name companies.

I used to photograph friesian horses, but I found that the Dutch
breeders were in the European mindeset, so no matter how I presented
the proofs, they just used them without paying. I can't afford to
drive to each farm after a shoot (most are several hours away), so
there was no way to do proofs in person. I had to print something or
post something, and they used them without paying every time. And
each time they would see me, they would ask when I was going to buy a
friesian. Um, maybe when people start paying me for my services? THey
aren't going to give me a free horse. Why should I give them free
photos year after year. I still photograph the annual show for my own
enjoyment and study, but I do not post the photos.

I do photograph other breeds of horses with fewer problems. There will
always be cheaters, but it isn't consistent with people who are used
to the American system. And I do much better at cat shows. There, the
people pay in advance for a specified number of photos. And they have
no problem with the concept. They do get advertising usage included in
the service. I've only had one person that tried to skip out.

I can't imagine how photographers could ake a living in Europe if they
have to depend on people paying when they know they can get away
without paying for it.
 >> Stay informed about: Canon challenge.. any submissions from people here?