ACR NEF mistake?

Sosumi wrote:
> When I took multi exposure pictures, ACR only shows the first picture. That
> is, combined with bracketing. No problem with either Capture NX or View NX.
> Obviously, ACR can't read all information that Nikon software can. I
> consider this a major flaw, because you have no way of ever editing these
> files in PS or LTR.
>
> Maybe it's time for an update, Adobe?

Exposure bracketing only produces one NEF file?
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

On Jan 29, 5:50 am, "Sosumi" <sos....RemoveThis@home.nl> wrote:
> When I took multi exposure pictures, ACR only shows the first picture. That
> is, combined with bracketing. No problem with either Capture NX or View NX.
> Obviously, ACR can't read all information that Nikon software can. I
> consider this a major flaw, because you have no way of ever editing these
> files in PS or LTR.
>
> Maybe it's time for an update, Adobe?
>
> --
> Sosumi


It really isn't a big deal, ACR is very flexible and much quicker than
any of the Nikon products. Properly calibrated ACR does a very good
job. The only gripe I have is that a slightly underexposed file will
have a little more noise when processed in ACR, proper exposure, there
is no problem. As to bracketing, ACR will show all brackets as will
Bridge which I use as my original viewing program. I have been using
ACR for the 2 years I have had my D200, tried Capture NX and decided,
though it had some interesting features it didn't give much more than
a well calibrated ACR. I have had excellent response to the work I
have done with the D200.

Tom
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

"Rita Berkowitz" <ritaberk2008 RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:13pufjlhq8gut1e@news.supernews.com...
> tomm42 wrote:
>
>> It really isn't a big deal, ACR is very flexible and much quicker than
>> any of the Nikon products. Properly calibrated ACR does a very good
>> job. The only gripe I have is that a slightly underexposed file will
>> have a little more noise when processed in ACR, proper exposure, there
>> is no problem. As to bracketing, ACR will show all brackets as will
>> Bridge which I use as my original viewing program. I have been using
>> ACR for the 2 years I have had my D200, tried Capture NX and decided,
>> though it had some interesting features it didn't give much more than
>> a well calibrated ACR. I have had excellent response to the work I
>> have done with the D200.
>
> Sadly Capture NX is a major resource hog and isn't laid out for optimum
> workflow. NX does a nice job of processing RAW so much better than ACR,
> but isn't a practical solution. Even getting a free copy of NX with my
> D3,
> I still feel like I overpaid and was cheated. I would have preferred an
> AC
> adapter. For general purpose shooting ACR is the way to go. When you
> need
> some serious correction on an image you are better off with NX.

I agree, it's far too slow. On Windows it depends on the Framework NET stuff
that should have been outlawed.
The other night I had 66 pictures in a batch process just sharpened and
saved again: 30 minutes at least!
But some things are just so darn good in NX, that ACR just can't even come
close. The control point is a very good example.

The picture I made was of a "black rose"; one of the most difficult objects
to make a good picture of. I made a multi exposure with auto gain, combined
with auto bracketing. in total 9 pictures in one frame. The result just took
my breath away; finally after trying with about 6 different dig. camera's
and months and a lot of roses
In NX View and Capture: no problem, but when I tried to open it in PS it was
just another far too black and dark rose. I wanted to use some filters that
are not possible in NX, so I ended up saving it as a TIFF and then I worked
on it in PS.

Mostly I zip thru my pictures and pick the ones that look good, which isn't
that many on a given day, so I really don't have so much to change and
adjust anymore. It would be a different story if I had to process hundreds
of pics every day

But I agree, Capture should be included with all Nikons, because it's
virtually an extension of the camera. Maybe some they they'll turbo boost it
and allow to use third party filters like the ones for PS.


--
Sosumi
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

"Paul Furman" <paul-.DeleteThis@-edgehill.net> wrote in message
news:EyInj.43861$Pv2.31967@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
> Sosumi wrote:
>> When I took multi exposure pictures, ACR only shows the first picture.
>> That is, combined with bracketing. No problem with either Capture NX or
>> View NX.
>> Obviously, ACR can't read all information that Nikon software can. I
>> consider this a major flaw, because you have no way of ever editing these
>> files in PS or LTR.
>>
>> Maybe it's time for an update, Adobe?
>
> Exposure bracketing only produces one NEF file?

Combined with multiple exposure: yes! (oops: I wrote multi)

Problem seems to be, that NX View and Capture take the control points and
other settings in consideration, while ACR can't or won't.


--
Sosumi
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

"Sosumi" <sosumi.DeleteThis@home.nl> wrote in message
news:nKGdnUZ_nqV1DQLanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@novis.pt...
>
> "Paul Furman" <paul-.DeleteThis@-edgehill.net> wrote in message
> news:EyInj.43861$Pv2.31967@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>> Sosumi wrote:
>>> When I took multi exposure pictures, ACR only shows the first picture.
>>> That is, combined with bracketing. No problem with either Capture NX or
>>> View NX.
>>> Obviously, ACR can't read all information that Nikon software can. I
>>> consider this a major flaw, because you have no way of ever editing
>>> these files in PS or LTR.
>>>
>>> Maybe it's time for an update, Adobe?
>>
>> Exposure bracketing only produces one NEF file?
>
> Combined with multiple exposure: yes! (oops: I wrote multi)
>
> Problem seems to be, that NX View and Capture take the control points and
> other settings in consideration, while ACR can't or won't.
>
>
> --
> Sosumi

What type of bracketing are you attempting? Exposure, flash or white
balance.
Normally, each push of the shutter (in single frame mode) produces one
exposure. That means a uniquely numbered exposure for each push. If you
set it for 3 exposures (normal, -1, +1) you get 3 separately numbered
frames. White balance bracketing would produce the 3 frames with a single
shutter push, but still 3 separately numbered frames.
Now viewing these frames in Bridge or ACR (except if shooting NEF, you
can't do white balance bracketing) you will see each separate frame the same
as if you weren't bracketing.
There is no "only recognizing the first frame" as each frame is a
separate exposure as it normally would be.
What are we missing here?
Bob
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

"Sosumi" <sosumi.DeleteThis@home.nl> wrote:
>"Robert Brace" <rlbrace.DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> What type of bracketing are you attempting? Exposure, flash or white
>> balance.
>> Normally, each push of the shutter (in single frame mode) produces one
>> exposure. That means a uniquely numbered exposure for each push. If you
>> set it for 3 exposures (normal, -1, +1) you get 3 separately numbered
>> frames. White balance bracketing would produce the 3 frames with a single
>> shutter push, but still 3 separately numbered frames.
>> Now viewing these frames in Bridge or ACR (except if shooting NEF, you
>> can't do white balance bracketing) you will see each separate frame the
>> same
>> as if you weren't bracketing.
>> There is no "only recognizing the first frame" as each frame is a
>> separate exposure as it normally would be.
>> What are we missing here?
>
>I'm talking about a combination of exposure bracketing with multiple
>exposure, both set to 9 frames. So what you get is *one* picture made of 9
>different exposures.

Assuming the D300 is the same as the D3, there is no
such thing as "a combination of exposure bracketing with
multiple exposures".

You can use "exposure bracketing", which will give you 9
different images, each with a different exposure; or you
can use "multiple exposures", which will give you 1
image made up of a combination from 9 separate
exposures.

If you first set bracketing, you can then set multiple
exposures but it will automatically reset the bracketing
to 0 frames. And if you first turn on multiple
exposures, you cannot access bracketing to set it until
multiple exposures is off. (You can further test that
by setting bracketing to some non-zero value, then turn
on multiple exposures followed by turning it off... and
checking the bracketing again, which will now be 0F.)

Hence I assume that what you actually have done is
enabled multiple exposures, fired off 9 shots, and
therefore have one NEF file generated from those 9
exposures. Is that correct?

If you continued to make exposures after that, without
changing either the bracketing or the multiple
exposures, those options will both be OFF as of the 9th
exposure above. Following exposures will generate their
own NEF files, none of which will be either bracketed or
made up of multiple exposures. Is that what you are
getting?

>After I worked on it in NX Capture, I wanted to add some filter effects in
>PS, but all the nice things I added in NX were lost in PS or better: not
>recognized by ACR.

I'm not specifically familiar with any of that software.
It doesn't appear to actually be a software problem,
other than perhaps one program is not showing you as
much of the Exif data as the others. But that does
*not* change what the images are.

I take it that you are working with the NEF files
produced. You should be able to convert them to an
image format using virtually any RAW conversion
software, and then save the resulting file in whatever
format (JPEG, TIFF, PPM, etc) format you choose for
further editing with PS.

>in NX Capture and NX View you see at the camera settings that it's a 9 frame
>picture: in ACR you don't have this information.

Does that make any difference? That's just a matter of
presentation of Exif data, not a difference in what the
images are or are not.

Here's a fairly simple test you can make to verify what
you are getting. Do this with an empty CF card in the
camera.

1) Set bracketing to 9 frames.
2) Set multiple exposures to 9 frames.
3) Make 8 exposures, and note that the light
indicating that it is writing to the CF card
does *not* go on.
4) Make the 9th exposure, and note that the
light now goes on indicating that it is
writing to the CF card. Wait for it to
finish and the light to go off.
5) Check the bracketing, by pushing down the
BKT button, and note that the display says
0F.
6) Make one more exposure, again noting that
the light again goes on. Wait for the light
to extinguish.

You can now take the CF card out, and download the two
images. If you have something like /exiftool/ to look
at the Exif data you will discover that the first image
indicates it was made with multiple exposures, while the
second image was not, and that both images used exactly
the same exposure (there was no bracketing).

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.DeleteThis@apaflo.com
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

"Sosumi" <sosumi RemoveThis @home.nl> wrote:
>"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com> wrote:
>> Here's a fairly simple test you can make to verify what
>> you are getting. Do this with an empty CF card in the
>> camera.
>>
>> 1) Set bracketing to 9 frames.
>> 2) Set multiple exposures to 9 frames.
>> 3) Make 8 exposures, and note that the light
>> indicating that it is writing to the CF card
>> does *not* go on.
>> 4) Make the 9th exposure, and note that the
>> light now goes on indicating that it is
>> writing to the CF card. Wait for it to
>> finish and the light to go off.
>> 5) Check the bracketing, by pushing down the
>> BKT button, and note that the display says
>> 0F.
>> 6) Make one more exposure, again noting that
>> the light again goes on. Wait for the light
>> to extinguish.
>>
>> You can now take the CF card out, and download the two
>> images. If you have something like /exiftool/ to look
>> at the Exif data you will discover that the first image
>> indicates it was made with multiple exposures, while the
>> second image was not, and that both images used exactly
>> the same exposure (there was no bracketing).
>
>Darn! You're right! I don't know how I screwed this up, but I could swear I
>had that combination. Specially since I finally got a very good shot with
>it. So I guess I'll try some "hand made" bracketing with multiple exposure.
>Since that does work, I wonder why it can not be used together?
>Someone told me it would not be any different than a single shot, but I'm
>thinking the camera might still get a little more dynamic range. What do you
>think?

Well, what you apparently want (where you set both to 9,
press the shutter release 9 times and each one has a
different exposure setting, which are then all averaged
to one frame), is not worth much.

It either adds or averages all of the exposures.
Changing some of them just doesn't make much difference
if the average is still the same.

That doesn't change the dynamic range in the sense that
can be done by taking parts from one or parts from
another, but it does expand dynamic range in a different
way though. By reducing the amount of noise at the low
end, which will not add up at the same linear rate that
the light from the scene will. That gives you a higher
Signal To Noise Ratio, which essentially means a more
useful dynamic range.

And that *really* does work too!. Try it two ways,
first averaging, and then just adding. Set your camera
(on a tripod) to its highest ISO and make an exposure of
some place that has a lot of dim areas where noise will
be very obvious. Then set it for multiple exposures and
averaged 8 to 10 exposures. The difference in noise
will be astounding.

But now if you want to just blow your mind out... set
it to add the exposures. Except now you have to do a
bit of fiddling. If your ISO is set to 6400 and you
added two exposures, that would be twice the light, so
it would over expose by 1 fstop. Use manual exposure,
and adjust the actual exposure down by an amount that
depends on how many exposures you'll be adding. (I
guess you could also use exposure compensation, and
still use one of the programmed exposure settings.)

To get the exposure right with the camera set for ISO
6400, set multiple exposures for 8... and then cut the
actual exposure back by 3 fstops. Essentially you are
not shooting ISO 6400, but at ISO 50,400.

The noise however will be about equivalent of what you'd
get at ISO 6400.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd RemoveThis @apaflo.com
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

"Robert Brace" <rlbrace DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ZRMnj.22479$4w.16339@pd7urf2no...
>
> "Sosumi" <sosumi DeleteThis @home.nl> wrote in message
> news:nKGdnUZ_nqV1DQLanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@novis.pt...
>>
>> "Paul Furman" <paul- DeleteThis @-edgehill.net> wrote in message
>> news:EyInj.43861$Pv2.31967@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>>> Sosumi wrote:
>>>> When I took multi exposure pictures, ACR only shows the first picture.
>>>> That is, combined with bracketing. No problem with either Capture NX or
>>>> View NX.
>>>> Obviously, ACR can't read all information that Nikon software can. I
>>>> consider this a major flaw, because you have no way of ever editing
>>>> these files in PS or LTR.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it's time for an update, Adobe?
>>>
>>> Exposure bracketing only produces one NEF file?
>>
>> Combined with multiple exposure: yes! (oops: I wrote multi)
>>
>> Problem seems to be, that NX View and Capture take the control points and
>> other settings in consideration, while ACR can't or won't.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sosumi
>
> What type of bracketing are you attempting? Exposure, flash or white
> balance.
> Normally, each push of the shutter (in single frame mode) produces one
> exposure. That means a uniquely numbered exposure for each push. If you
> set it for 3 exposures (normal, -1, +1) you get 3 separately numbered
> frames. White balance bracketing would produce the 3 frames with a single
> shutter push, but still 3 separately numbered frames.
> Now viewing these frames in Bridge or ACR (except if shooting NEF, you
> can't do white balance bracketing) you will see each separate frame the
> same
> as if you weren't bracketing.
> There is no "only recognizing the first frame" as each frame is a
> separate exposure as it normally would be.
> What are we missing here?

I'm talking about a combination of exposure bracketing with multiple
exposure, both set to 9 frames. So what you get is *one* picture made of 9
different exposures.
After I worked on it in NX Capture, I wanted to add some filter effects in
PS, but all the nice things I added in NX were lost in PS or better: not
recognized by ACR.
in NX Capture and NX View you see at the camera settings that it's a 9 frame
picture: in ACR you don't have this information.


--
Sosumi
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

Sosumi wrote:
> "Robert Brace" <rlbrace DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:ZRMnj.22479$4w.16339@pd7urf2no...
>> "Sosumi" <sosumi DeleteThis @home.nl> wrote in message
>> news:nKGdnUZ_nqV1DQLanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@novis.pt...
>>> "Paul Furman" <paul- DeleteThis @-edgehill.net> wrote in message
>>> news:EyInj.43861$Pv2.31967@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>>>> Sosumi wrote:
>>>>> When I took multi exposure pictures, ACR only shows the first picture.
>>>>> That is, combined with bracketing. No problem with either Capture NX or
>>>>> View NX.
>>>>> Obviously, ACR can't read all information that Nikon software can. I
>>>>> consider this a major flaw, because you have no way of ever editing
>>>>> these files in PS or LTR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it's time for an update, Adobe?
>>>> Exposure bracketing only produces one NEF file?
>>> Combined with multiple exposure: yes! (oops: I wrote multi)
>>>
>>> Problem seems to be, that NX View and Capture take the control points and
>>> other settings in consideration, while ACR can't or won't.
>>>
>> What type of bracketing are you attempting? Exposure, flash or white
>> balance.
>> Normally, each push of the shutter (in single frame mode) produces one
>> exposure. That means a uniquely numbered exposure for each push. If you
>> set it for 3 exposures (normal, -1, +1) you get 3 separately numbered
>> frames. White balance bracketing would produce the 3 frames with a single
>> shutter push, but still 3 separately numbered frames.
>> Now viewing these frames in Bridge or ACR (except if shooting NEF, you
>> can't do white balance bracketing) you will see each separate frame the
>> same
>> as if you weren't bracketing.
>> There is no "only recognizing the first frame" as each frame is a
>> separate exposure as it normally would be.
>> What are we missing here?
>
> I'm talking about a combination of exposure bracketing with multiple
> exposure, both set to 9 frames. So what you get is *one* picture made of 9
> different exposures.

Why? Unless it's an HDR type composite, the exposures will just average
out and the main difference would be less noise like people do for astro
imaging, right?

> After I worked on it in NX Capture, I wanted to add some filter effects in
> PS, but all the nice things I added in NX were lost in PS or better: not
> recognized by ACR.
> in NX Capture and NX View you see at the camera settings that it's a 9 frame
> picture: in ACR you don't have this information.

I wouldn't expect ACR know whatever tricks Nikon or any company does.
That's not any sort of standard exif data. Those are NX features, not
ACR features.
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake? 

"Floyd L. Davidson" <floyd.TakeThisOut@apaflo.com> wrote in message
news:87ejbz81bu.fld@apaflo.com...
> "Sosumi" <sosumi.TakeThisOut@home.nl> wrote:
>>"Robert Brace" <rlbrace.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> What type of bracketing are you attempting? Exposure, flash or white
>>> balance.
>>> Normally, each push of the shutter (in single frame mode) produces
>>> one
>>> exposure. That means a uniquely numbered exposure for each push. If
>>> you
>>> set it for 3 exposures (normal, -1, +1) you get 3 separately numbered
>>> frames. White balance bracketing would produce the 3 frames with a
>>> single
>>> shutter push, but still 3 separately numbered frames.
>>> Now viewing these frames in Bridge or ACR (except if shooting NEF,
>>> you
>>> can't do white balance bracketing) you will see each separate frame the
>>> same
>>> as if you weren't bracketing.
>>> There is no "only recognizing the first frame" as each frame is a
>>> separate exposure as it normally would be.
>>> What are we missing here?
>>
>>I'm talking about a combination of exposure bracketing with multiple
>>exposure, both set to 9 frames. So what you get is *one* picture made of 9
>>different exposures.
>
> Assuming the D300 is the same as the D3, there is no
> such thing as "a combination of exposure bracketing with
> multiple exposures".
>
> You can use "exposure bracketing", which will give you 9
> different images, each with a different exposure; or you
> can use "multiple exposures", which will give you 1
> image made up of a combination from 9 separate
> exposures.
>
> If you first set bracketing, you can then set multiple
> exposures but it will automatically reset the bracketing
> to 0 frames. And if you first turn on multiple
> exposures, you cannot access bracketing to set it until
> multiple exposures is off. (You can further test that
> by setting bracketing to some non-zero value, then turn
> on multiple exposures followed by turning it off... and
> checking the bracketing again, which will now be 0F.)
>
> Hence I assume that what you actually have done is
> enabled multiple exposures, fired off 9 shots, and
> therefore have one NEF file generated from those 9
> exposures. Is that correct?
>
> If you continued to make exposures after that, without
> changing either the bracketing or the multiple
> exposures, those options will both be OFF as of the 9th
> exposure above. Following exposures will generate their
> own NEF files, none of which will be either bracketed or
> made up of multiple exposures. Is that what you are
> getting?
>
>>After I worked on it in NX Capture, I wanted to add some filter effects in
>>PS, but all the nice things I added in NX were lost in PS or better: not
>>recognized by ACR.
>
> I'm not specifically familiar with any of that software.
> It doesn't appear to actually be a software problem,
> other than perhaps one program is not showing you as
> much of the Exif data as the others. But that does
> *not* change what the images are.
>
> I take it that you are working with the NEF files
> produced. You should be able to convert them to an
> image format using virtually any RAW conversion
> software, and then save the resulting file in whatever
> format (JPEG, TIFF, PPM, etc) format you choose for
> further editing with PS.
>
>>in NX Capture and NX View you see at the camera settings that it's a 9
>>frame
>>picture: in ACR you don't have this information.
>
> Does that make any difference? That's just a matter of
> presentation of Exif data, not a difference in what the
> images are or are not.
>
> Here's a fairly simple test you can make to verify what
> you are getting. Do this with an empty CF card in the
> camera.
>
> 1) Set bracketing to 9 frames.
> 2) Set multiple exposures to 9 frames.
> 3) Make 8 exposures, and note that the light
> indicating that it is writing to the CF card
> does *not* go on.
> 4) Make the 9th exposure, and note that the
> light now goes on indicating that it is
> writing to the CF card. Wait for it to
> finish and the light to go off.
> 5) Check the bracketing, by pushing down the
> BKT button, and note that the display says
> 0F.
> 6) Make one more exposure, again noting that
> the light again goes on. Wait for the light
> to extinguish.
>
> You can now take the CF card out, and download the two
> images. If you have something like /exiftool/ to look
> at the Exif data you will discover that the first image
> indicates it was made with multiple exposures, while the
> second image was not, and that both images used exactly
> the same exposure (there was no bracketing).

Darn! You're right! I don't know how I screwed this up, but I could swear I
had that combination. Specially since I finally got a very good shot with
it. So I guess I'll try some "hand made" bracketing with multiple exposure.
Since that does work, I wonder why it can not be used together?
Someone told me it would not be any different than a single shot, but I'm
thinking the camera might still get a little more dynamic range. What do you
think?


--
Sosumi
 >> Stay informed about: ACR NEF mistake?