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35mm film scanner questions

 
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Allan

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Since: Mar 13, 2006
Posts: 15



(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:49 am
Post subject: Re: 35mm film scanner questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Well, I seem to have started quite a discussion. Thanks for all the replies.
I will give the film scanner some serious thought

It looks like I should just forget about it and invest the money into DSLR
equipment.

thanks

Allan


"Allan" <pabroon.DeleteThis@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:H3jRf.702$fy1.89880@news20.bellglobal.com...
> I know there has been discussion on this before, but I now find myself in
> the market for a film scanner. I expect to scan about 5 films per week.
>
> Also, I have older Nikon bodies and lenses. Am I right in thinking that
with
> a good film scanner I can expect similar photograph quality to say the
Nikon
> D200?
>
> What are the current thoughts on this - models, features etc?
>
> thanks
>
> Allan
>
>

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David J. Littleboy

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Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 1150



(Msg. 17) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:57 am
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"m4w3y3" <marbing.TakeThisOut@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> For another example, the resolving ability of film and film camera lens
> has been measured in lpmm (line pairs/mm) for years. There are, therefore,
> years of data on lens and film resolution measured in lpmm...but digital
> cameras resolving potential is NEVER stated in lpmm thus making direct
> comparisons impossible. Instead, digital camera resolution is measured in
> LPH (or Lines per Picture Height)..a completely incompatible unit of
> measurement with no conversion factor.

LPH is a far better way to measure resolution, since it requires no
conversion between formats. (Film comes in a lot of sizes, from Minox
through 4x5, and some of us use several of them.)

> They say that this is to take into account the different sizes of digital
> sensors in spite of the fact that lpmm is used for ALL sizes of film. I
> think the reason for this is that digital cameras just wouldn't compare
> very favorably to film when the same units are used.

The P&S dcams are far better than film in terms of lp/mm for actual imaging.
(Zeiss uses blue light and microfilm to get some insane numbers, but slide
films have almost no practically usable response at 50 lp/mm while most P&S
dcams show strong contrast at well over 100 lp/mm.)

> But, people do claim that the results from their digital cameras are
> 'better' than the results from film.

In my 6x7 vs. 5D tests, the 6x7 does better at high contrast detail. This is
very noticeable in urban architectural shots where there are signs and fine
architecturel detail everywhere from nearby to infinity. But for landscape
and nature shots, where the contrast in the detail is a lot lower, there's
no significant difference. 35mm is, of course, a pitiful joke compare to the
5D.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

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tomm42

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Since: Feb 01, 2006
Posts: 525



(Msg. 18) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:16 am
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As Rafe asked, what scanner are you using? If it is a flatbed other
than Creo or some high end unit, they just don't compare in 35mm to
film scanners or digital cameras. With most film you are running into
empty enlargement above 4000ppi anyway.
I have printed from 35mm scans, 2 1/4 and 4x5 scan and digital
cameras.The digital cameras I printed from most was a Kodak DCS760, it
would beat any 35mm scan hands down and was better than a few 2 1/4
cameras. We would print larger than 16x20 sometimes up to 30x40 though
that is really pushing the medium.
If you are happy, why not continue with what you are doing, it is the
tried and true method. Just don't come on here and tell us we a full of
sh**. Cause a lot of us have been doing this for a while.
The problem with comparing film to digital is as you say, most folk
don't use the same language. So everything we are saying (me and you)
is subjective. Also film resolution factors vary greatly with contrast,
so the results with a high contrast target won't be the same as a real
photograph.
Good photography still comes down to good technique more than anything
else, weather it is with film or digital.

Tom
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Scott W

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Since: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 704



(Msg. 19) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:01 pm
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Stephen Henning wrote:
> "Scott W" <biphoto.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well I think calling a DSLR the very best film scanner made is a pretty
> > big overstatment.
> > I think it could work well enough for many if not most people but it
> > can in no way compete with a high end scanner.
> > Perhaps you could post a sample of you film scanned using your DSLR?
>
> Are you trying to imply that a film scanner can bring out more quality
> that than the camera that made the image put into the film? Obviously
> if a camera made the film, then a camera can copy it. It doesn't take a
> machine to do a camera's job. The camera just has to be as good or
> better than the camera that made the film.

Digital and film are not the same thing, film tends to have more detail
but also a lot more noise. If you use a DSLR to photograph the film
you will send up with all of the noise of the film but none of the
detail

Film scanners also have well controlled light, something your DSLR will
not have. A film scanner only has to have a lens with a working width
equal to the high of the 35mm film, 24mm, a DSLR lens needs to work
over the diagonal of the film or 43mm.

The photo sites on a linear scanner are often larger then on a CCD and
so the scanner can have more dynamic range.

There is no Bayer pattern on a scanner.

Film makes a mess of an image, IMO, but to get all you can out of it
you need a dedicated scanner.

Scott
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rafe b

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Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 124



(Msg. 20) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:19 pm
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"Stephen Henning" <pighash.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:pighash-F534B1.15552214032006@news.isp.giganews.com...
> "Scott W" <biphoto.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well I think calling a DSLR the very best film scanner made is a pretty
>> big overstatment.
>> I think it could work well enough for many if not most people but it
>> can in no way compete with a high end scanner.
>> Perhaps you could post a sample of you film scanned using your DSLR?
>
> Are you trying to imply that a film scanner can bring out more quality
> that than the camera that made the image put into the film? Obviously
> if a camera made the film, then a camera can copy it. It doesn't take a
> machine to do a camera's job. The camera just has to be as good or
> better than the camera that made the film.


A proper film scanner has to be accurate in one dimesion: a line.
Everything about its design takes advantage of that.

A camera has to be accurate in two dimensions: an area.
Everything about its design (at least as far as image-formation goes)
revolves around that fact.

This is also why film scanners are better at extracting detail from
film than optical enlargers.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
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Thomas T. Veldhouse

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Since: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 675



(Msg. 21) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:48 pm
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Thomas T. Veldhouse

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Since: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 675



(Msg. 22) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:05 pm
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Thomas T. Veldhouse

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Since: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 675



(Msg. 23) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:07 pm
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Kennedy McEwen

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Since: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 261



(Msg. 24) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:22 pm
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In article <pighash-52AAAC.10555714032006 RemoveThis @news.isp.giganews.com>,
Stephen Henning <pighash RemoveThis @aol.com> writes
>If you have a DSLR, you already have the very best film scanner made.
>With a macro lens you can do slide copying just like all photographers
>did for many decades. The advantage is that you have full control of
>contrast and color temperature. So if you want the best film scanner
>made, then just get yourself a copy stand and enjoy quality.
>
Any film scanner worth the name provides all of the features on your
dSLR - and more. How, for example, does your dSLR distinguish between
defects on the film surface, such as dust, dirt, or scratches and real
image content? How does it remove these defects from your final image
without affecting other similar image features? How does it correct for
the uneven transmission of the macro lens across the field? How does it
pull out shadow detail in the slide that is at densities of 3 or more
without posterising them? Sure, some of these can be fixed with a lot
of hard work on the dSLR output, others can't - yet, after a little
practice, a decent scanner will wrap them all up in a simple single push
button process.

> Would you
>rather spend you money on a good macro lens or a film scanner? I know
>where my money has already been spent.

Aha - now it is clear that you have no idea what a decent film scanner
is capable of, because you spent your cash on a "one-size-fits-all"
solution rather than specialising.
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
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Kennedy McEwen

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Since: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 261



(Msg. 25) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:22 pm
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In article <fPpRf.1155$fy1.117459@news20.bellglobal.com>, m4w3y3
<marbing.DeleteThis@sympatico.ca> writes
>If that is true why is there resistance on the part of digital people to a
>fair comparison?
>
This seals it for me!

One of the first things most folk do when they get their first dSLR is
compare how it performs against their tried and trusted film SLRs.

Folks - I think we have been quite successfully trolled. Congratulations
Marbing, you got most of the regulars in the group with that one .

Your 6400ppi 24-bpc scanner should have been a clue to most of us that
your pro-film position was just a wind-up.
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
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Dave Martindale

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Since: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 535



(Msg. 26) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:04 pm
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Stephen Henning <pighash.DeleteThis@aol.com> writes:
>If you have a DSLR, you already have the very best film scanner made.
>With a macro lens you can do slide copying just like all photographers
>did for many decades. The advantage is that you have full control of
>contrast and color temperature. So if you want the best film scanner
>made, then just get yourself a copy stand and enjoy quality. Would you
>rather spend you money on a good macro lens or a film scanner? I know
>where my money has already been spent.

The macro lens might be just as good as the lens in a film scanner, but
that doesn't make a DSLR plus slide copier the equal of a film scanner.

Most film scanners use a linear array sensor, not an area array. That
allows them to measure red, green, blue, and often infrared
transmittance individually at every pixel position, instead of using a
Bayer filter sensor. Measuring RGB independently increases colour
resolution and avoids colour/luma separation errors. Measuring infrared
is the basis of automatic dirt-removal methods. And getting linear
arrays with 5000-6000 pixels across the height of the frame is not
difficult, while DSLRs with comparable resolution are nonexistent.

Then, some scanners use an illuminated slit light source that moves
along with the sensor array (or the film moves and the light source and
array are stationary, which amounts to the same thing). With this
configuration, most of the flare light scattered by the lens from the
illuminated line on the film is scattered outside the sensor and
vanishes. Another way of looking at it: most of the flare that any one
pixel in an area-array sensor like a DSLR would see with an area light
source is not present with a line light source, because almost all of
the film area is dark at any given time.

Then there are drum scanners that illuminate only a small disc on the
film at a time, not a line. They get even more optical flare reduction
from this - essentially all flare light is rejected.

The slower pace of scanning and digitizing also may allow the scanner to
capture more bits per pixel. That, plus the better flare performance of
the slit-illuminated optics, means you can see further into the darker
areas of the transparency or negative.

And of course the scanner provides full control of contrast and colour
temperature. The colour temperature adjustment, in particular, is
generally done by adjusting illumination or exposure time, *not* scaling
the data after the A/D converter, so you get the full A/D converter
range (unlike a digital camera).

Finally, film scanners come with sofware that understands how to convert
negative density back into original-scene light. If you photograph a
negative with a DSLR, you have to do this yourself, and it's *not* just
a matter of inverting the channels to get this right.

All in all, a DSLR is not capable of matching a well-designed film
scanner.

Dave
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AZ Nomad

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Since: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 56



(Msg. 27) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:25 pm
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On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:19:23 -0500, rafe b <rafeb.DeleteThis@foobar.com> wrote:



>"Stephen Henning" <pighash.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:pighash-F534B1.15552214032006@news.isp.giganews.com...
>> "Scott W" <biphoto.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Well I think calling a DSLR the very best film scanner made is a pretty
>>> big overstatment.
>>> I think it could work well enough for many if not most people but it
>>> can in no way compete with a high end scanner.
>>> Perhaps you could post a sample of you film scanned using your DSLR?
>>
>> Are you trying to imply that a film scanner can bring out more quality
>> that than the camera that made the image put into the film? Obviously
>> if a camera made the film, then a camera can copy it. It doesn't take a
>> machine to do a camera's job. The camera just has to be as good or
>> better than the camera that made the film.


>A proper film scanner has to be accurate in one dimesion: a line.
>Everything about its design takes advantage of that.

How did you arrive at that theory? The pickup may be a line, but
the axis that moves the pickup is another dimension. Make either one
sloppy and you've got a bad scan.




>A camera has to be accurate in two dimensions: an area.
ditto for a scanner.

>Everything about its design (at least as far as image-formation goes)
>revolves around that fact.

>This is also why film scanners are better at extracting detail from
>film than optical enlargers.


>rafe b
>www.terrapinphoto.com
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rafe b

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Since: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 124



(Msg. 28) Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:25 pm
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"AZ Nomad" <aznomad.DeleteThis@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrne1ed97.ol6.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:19:23 -0500, rafe b <rafeb.DeleteThis@foobar.com> wrote:

>>A proper film scanner has to be accurate in one dimesion: a line.
>>Everything about its design takes advantage of that.
>
> How did you arrive at that theory? The pickup may be a line, but
> the axis that moves the pickup is another dimension. Make either one
> sloppy and you've got a bad scan.


Think image circle. The sensing element in a scanner -- the CCD --
only needs to fit neatly along the diameter of that circle. Whereas
with film, the entire *area* of the film has to fit in that circle. So
with a CCD, you can design for a smaller image circle, which
almost always results in a better lens overall. Furthermore, the
image is always at the center of the image circle, in in the axis
of the film or CCD travel.

Correction for light falloff with incident angle only needs to
be done in one dimension, and is done scanline-by-scanline.

The CCD on a good filmscanner has more pixels in its one
dimension than most square or rectangular arrays have in
either dimension.

Example 1: Eos 20D: sensor: 3520x2344 pixels, but a Nikon
Coolscan 5000 sensor is at least 4000 pixels long, and those
pixels are aligned with the *short* axis of the frame.

Example 2: Eos 1DsMKII sensor: 4992 x 3328 pixels, but
a Coolscan 8000 or 9000 CCD sensor is 10,000 pixels long.
Again, those 10,000 pixels are aligned with the width of the
film, so scans of 6x7 or 6x9 cm actually produce images of
> 100 million pixels.

The ultimate extension of this theory is a drum scanner, which
really only images a point -- not even a line. It is, in effect, a
microscope objective poised over the film, and imaging one
microscopic circle at a time.


rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
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Thomas T. Veldhouse

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Since: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 675



(Msg. 29) Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:46 am
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Scott W

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Since: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 704



(Msg. 30) Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:03 am
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Stephen Henning wrote:
> "Scott W" <biphoto RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Film makes a mess of an image, IMO, but to get all you can out of it
> > you need a dedicated scanner.
>
> Maybe you do, I don't.
Well we are still waiting to see how good of a image you can get time
photographing 35mm film, can you do a post?

Scott
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